APAT Tournament Hand of the Week: November 5th

[Graham C]

Trouble with calling is that he's going to push all in on the river then it's down to us again to make a decision.  I agree with Longy, and would push all in.  I'd put him on AK here. As I mentioned in my post about the flop, he's regretted not raising preflop with a big hand and now fears what he's let in and is overplaying his hand.

Nothing wrong with a little discussion..perhaps you are right but will he push the river? Longy seems to think he's a donk..but he might not be...do you really want to gamble with your tournament life on this read? Maybe..but not me. If we call here we still have c.10k back which is still playable at 200/400.

If you really think he's got AK and will push the river then you are gonna call anyway unless the board pairs against you. Maybe the river isn't free..but it's cheap enough!

I don't agree with Longy re the idiot part, I wouldn't be so rude   I'd give him some respect, especially after betting 4k on the turn.

If he had the straight, he should be reraising the raise on the flop surely?  With the FD out there, I wouldn't risk just flat calling, I'd be pushing if I'd made the straight.  I'd rule QJ out.   

Would he have been the first to enter the pot and limp in with KT?  I wouldn't have thought so, although his surprised look could explain the nice flop for him.   Perhaps I'm reading too much into the comment about this. 

So if we flat call here, the pot is going to be 18.5k and we have only 10k back.  I can't see anything else other than an all in happening on the river.  Matey has shown some strength calling the reraise then leading with 4k on the turn so I can't see him going anywhere, the pot is going to be too big. 

I was going to write this

I think it either needs folding or pushing, calling isn't an option.

But then I remembered an article recently about Daniel Negraneau (I think) who mentioned that us Europeans are too keen to put all our chips in, where as the Americans like a more lowball type game.

So perhaps calling is the option here and seeing what the river brings.   He may well check as he hasn't managed to frighten us off yet.

Hmmm, 5 minutes to learn, a lifetime to master........

[NoflopsHomer]

[relaedgc]

The inconceivable prospect that he just hit a set of fours entered my mind. Though I can't see how it's even remotely possible for him to call the raise on the flop, I have seen worse plays made with just as lucky an outcome.

The constant confusion he seems to be demonstrating is possibly a sign that's he is very inexperienced and decided to call. One of the first things I ever did when I played poker was call call call and shove on the river without really considering my hand to the board whatsoever, simply just trying to purely bluff my way out of it. That said, I am not sure how often those sort of players go into a casino to play live tournaments. I certainly didn't.

It's absurd as an example, I know, but it's clearly an amateur poker event and I think it's being over analytical to put him on AK esque hands because he doesn't strike me as the sort of player that is going to hold out for premium cards only. You just really can't tell what the hell he is holding and he is playing very oddly.

I could also just be utterly way off the mark and wrong. The latter being the likely.

[MANTIS01]

This week there isn't a Part III because all the action happened on the turn.

After my opponent bets 4,000 on the turn I try to put everything together. Limp pre-flop, over-bet on the flop, calling the raise and now a piddly little bet on the turn. Inconsistency abounds here and my inclination is that my opponent is trying to control the size of the pot and wants a river card for 4,000 but I'm not going to let that happen and push.

My opponent does call the all-in.

So both players are all-in with one card to come. Am I ahead or behind and does the best hand stand-up?

The reveal is really worth a read for every tournament player I think.

[LuckyLloyd]

Results are irrelevant.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: LuckyLloyd

Results are irrelevant.

This statement grates me a bit.

Tournament poker is a sport...and there is no other sport anywhere around the world where this statement would carry an ounce of credibility. Sounds like something a left-wing, bearded school govenor would say about a school sports day.

When Yang won the WSOP Main Event I read many a debate about his credibility and hoardes of people offered the opinion that he wasn't a particularly worthy winner with regard to his ability. How irrelevant was his result? Pretty relevant I imagine. I have re-posted below what I posted at the time.

The result is the most important thing in tournament poker...nothing else really matters. I was talking to my mate Marcus the other day soon after he had won the Grosvenor Grand Prix. Yes, he lucked out a few times in the tournament...namely 9-9 Vs A-A in the Final...did that bother him? LOL. Was the result irrelevant to him? LOL.

What's more the result of this week's HOTW is the result because of how YOU played it...the approach YOU took...so how is the result irrelevant? I really wouldn't know.

Ref: Is Yang Any Good?

For aspiring poker players the need to be good at the game should be a prominent goal. Why? Because the better you are the more chance you have of winning a big tournament. Any increase in skill level will negate the luck factor that little bit more...and the less you rely on luck the more realistic your chances of success actually become.

So for any of us on this journey, it is important not to become results orientated in order to keep our sanity in tact.

You read your opponent's re-raise as weak and call his all-in with 9-9. You find yourself up against 6-6 and get knocked-out to a rivered 6. You played perfect poker and lost. No matter how good you become you still remain a humble servant to the poker gods. But the quest to be a better player continues to burn bright and you take your seat at the next tournament with renewed enthusiasm.

However, when you do actually cash in a big one (e.g. Yang - $8.5m) everything I have just said would become complete and utter irrelevant piffle. Having achieved the ultimate goal you would quickly and clearly realise that poker is actually comprehensively results orientated. It matters not how you got there.....the important thing is you're there. It is only important to use the crutch of skill on the way up, it gives you hope, it gives you respect and it gives you the enthusiasm to plod onwards. Once there, I am sure you would quickly realise that any half-competent player is capable of winning any poker tournament and on that particular day the powers that be looked down kindly upon you. It was just your day.

When you have $8.5m it is inconsequential how "well" you performed....you have $8.5 MILLION!!!

For this sort of money you can call me a donkey if it makes you happy. I will just smile and adjust my bracelet slightly. In fact for $8.5m you can strap a saddle to my back and I will work the season on Blackpool Beach.

S Fox recently folded his way to $450k in the $5k NLH and was criticised somewhat for his performance

He said...

"Ive got a hang over from last night we nailed it in the voodo bar. Iwan told me he watched the final on the net and the guys were nailing me about playing tight, I did all the jiggy stuff to get in the final and dont care what some random guy thinks about how i play poker"

I think once you're there you're there and being good just doesn't matter any more. You will go promptly to the Voodo Bar and start your new life!

So how good is Yang?....Very, Very rich indeed!  

[Bongo]

You get it all in with AA preflop and lose.

Does the result mean you've played it bad? Not at all!

This is what's meant by "results are irrelevant".

When discussing how to play a hand it's not the end result that matters most, it's the decisions made along the way.

[Longy]

Results are irrelevant.

Lol, all i have got to say is keep em low dealer, no club, hollllllddddddddddddddddd, one timmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeee!

[M3boy]

Results are relevant - short term yes.

But long term, it is making "winning/correct" plays that counts.

[MANTIS01]

In this hand players need to have a good look at the result and learn that the result is directly linked to their approach from start to finish. You look at a result and analyse backwards to see how your actions brought you to that point, this means the result is always significant in analysis and the result is very significant in this hand imo.

I know Longy's post is not snobby high brow poker analysis...but it's still a bloody good post.

M3Boy what is your opinion of long term tournament expectation and how this works?

[ifm]

Results are irrelevant.

Metagaming

[M3boy]

M3Boy what is your opinion of long term tournament expectation and how this works?

My opinion of long term tournament expectation? Not entirely sure what you mean of this but .......

Long term, as long as I make correct plays (be it a lay down or a move or a call looking to hit) the result is irrelevant to me. Reducing/avoiding bad plays/situations will no doubt bring long term profit.

To become a good poker player, short term expectations/results should not distract you away from making the "correct" play

Hopefully this makes more sense

[ifm]

Results are irrelevant.

Lol, all i have got to say is keep em low dealer, no club, hollllllddddddddddddddddd, one timmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeee!

You 2 fellas need to stay off this board!!
There is a real danger you might actually bring some kippers round to your way of thinking and that can only be a bad thing..........

[ifm]

The result is the most important thing in tournament poker...nothing else really matters. I was talking to my mate Marcus the other day soon after he had won the Grosvenor Grand Prix. Yes, he lucked out a few times in the tournament...namely 9-9 Vs A-A in the Final...did that bother him? LOL. Was the result irrelevant to him? LOL.

Marcus played the £10 novice comp at walsall today LOL

[Sc00by]

lol, marcus played the rookie? phil ivey wouldn't cash in that thing i'm tellin' ya'



stop all the deep thinking analytical crud and tell me if the guy had K-T

my thoughts on the hand as i went through were....raise 3BB pre flop, i never limp, not once the blinds hit 200/400+, and i mean NEVER, if i wanna see a flop with 7-8, im raising 3BB, it gives me so many more options if i miss the flop(yes i know, i can lose a big pot this way, never said it was 100% right, just how i prefer)


on the flop i think he checks to me as i am the pre flop raiser, in which case i bet 2/3 of the pot.....but we'll go with his 4k bet, truth is im putting him on K-Q, K-J maybe A-K here now, maybe even Q-J or 9-9

i dont think he limps with A-K tho pre flop, so im crossing that 1 out


bottom line is, and you all said it on the turn, you have no idea where you are now, but the read of the small bet looking for a cheap river draw is what im going with, im sticking it in here and praying he doesnt have 1 of the 8 hands that have us beat

theres not much that calls you and doesnt have you crushed here, 1 hell of a tough spot i have to say

K-T
K-9
K-4
Q-J
K-K
T-T
9-9
4-4

all have you beat, infact, A-K is the only hand that calls you all in that you can beat, and i already ruled that hand out......

did i say push?...i meant errrr, call and try to lose as little as possible, tough to fold in this spot

why do i feel like he flopped the straight and you river the boat? lol, and thats why your reluctant to post results, LOL j/k 



aaarrrggghhhh driving me nuts, JUST TELL ME WHAT HE HAD !!!!!!