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Author Topic: Beginners Q  (Read 7594 times)
Acidmouse
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« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2005, 02:15:13 PM »

Well I have been playing online for a bit but just dont have a clue about pot odds. I can work out the hand odds and my outs pretty quick myself, but when you guys start mentioning pot odds I am lost.

Does it mean how much is in the pot and pot commited etc? and based on that you change the % of the hand winning?
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Royal Flush
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« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2005, 02:20:35 PM »

It's simple, if you are 2-1 to win the hand, then the pot needs to be twice the size of what you put in.

Now as an example someone bet's $100 into a pot of $100 and you have a flush draw, then it's correct to call (assuming for some reason they won't bet the turn)

If in the same example they bet $150 then you can still call some of the time, to call this now you have to be sure of getting paid when you hit, if the person has bet $150 then your calling $100 to win $250 and so would need to be assured of getting at least another $50 of them, this is probably going to be possible. That is where implied odds come from.


Obviously these are simple example's and it will never be the case where you know someone is going to check the turn after betting the flop. These are purely as examples.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2005, 02:21:21 PM »

Forget the notion of pot committed here


Hand odds....what odds are you to hit a card that will give you the winning hand?...some cards will be "clean" outs. At it's simplest, this is the way to calculate it.

Pot odds...how much do you have to put into the pot and to win how much...ie what odds are you being offered to call

compare your odds of winning hand versus your odds to call (pot odds) to decide whether the %ages dictate you have a call or not.
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Acidmouse
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« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2005, 02:26:01 PM »

Ahh thanks, I kinda get it. You stay in hands where the pot shows value in comparison to your chane of winning and how much you have to put into it.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2005, 02:28:13 PM »

and note forget how much you've put into it already...once the chips go in the middle they're not yours anymore

just consider the odds you are being offered on your next bet.
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tikay
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2005, 02:31:01 PM »

Ahh thanks, I kinda get it. You stay in hands where the pot shows value in comparison to your chane of winning and how much you have to put into it.

EUREKA!

Acidmouse has it. If you did what Acidmouse suggested (though it's not a practical option in truth) on EVERY HAND YOU PLAY, you'd be a winner in the long term - GUARANTEED.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2005, 02:32:34 PM »

but remember, the long term can be very long and made up of a lot of adverse short terms...this doesn't mean you are necessarily doing wrong, that's just poker!
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Robert HM
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« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2005, 02:42:41 PM »

Just to take this a little further.

How about a simple definition of reverse implied odds?
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danmonkey
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« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2005, 02:59:21 PM »

None of this is bad advice and Tightends reccomendation that you use clean outs only will make sure you never get involved when you are behind, but you will be passing on some situations where you are ahead (on pot odds).
This is where assigning a range of hands to your opponent comes in.  Most mere mortals can't say definitively what your opponent is holding (Peter Costa can according to Tikay's tales - theres a game to avoid), but you can have a good guess at working out what range of hands they may have.  

Experience will tell you what kind of hands they are playing, are they tight or loose, aggressive or passive.  You can use this information to inform your outs calculation.  You should have a go at working out what % of the time this opponent may be bluffing or semi-bluffing and whether they would make this move with top set or an overpair.  If you reason then that 2 out of 3 times they will have an over pair (less than KK) or worse then your 6 outs for Aces or Kings would be 'worth' 4 outs.  Thus you would have 13 outs and the rule of 4 gives you 52% and much better pot odds.

In actual fact if you could put your opponent on   then you would be a 55/45 favourite with   on a flop of   Two Clubs.  

The problem is putting your opponent on a range of hands and assigning them a probability.  This is a best guess scenario and relies on 'extra' information such as their style and any tells you can pick up.  It seems like hard work but it will make a difference in the long run.  

To illustrate this in the £5 rebuy at Blackpool on Sunday I saw a guy make a fantastic laydown with QQ preflop because he was absolutely certain the lady who re-raised him had AA or KK.  He had 2.5-1 pot odds to call all in but passed.  She had KK and he got plenty of stick for laying QQ down when the turn brought a Q.   I thought he made a great play especially considering the company he was in.

Lastly, there are plenty of books out there which do a better job than I of explaining things, Harrington volume 1 is a good start.
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« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2005, 04:40:06 PM »

Another to consider in tournament play is that your survival in the tournament is more important than what the pot is laying you (pot odds). Say you only have 7bb's left in the  example. It is probably a push all in on the flop orif you read is that strong a fold (only against a set is this a reasonable thing). The reason for this is don't want to call off your stack chasing a draw that never materalise, leaving you with virtually no chips left for the rest of the tournament. If you push you could possibly make your opponent fold or have created not far off the 2 to 1 odds needed for your outs to come on turn and river.

In a cash game let the maths be your guide if the maths is right a call is virtually always right. As cash games can be viewed as one long term game where your only aim is to maximise your winnings in every hand. I wouldn't go anywhere near a cash game without knowing pot and implied odds if you want to be a long term winner.
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Royal Flush
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« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2005, 04:56:28 PM »

i think for a begginer we can leave out the idea of how many BB;s you need to push with this hand etc.
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« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2005, 09:17:31 PM »

OK here's a question for you... I have six clean outs after the flop, using the rule of 4, 24% chance of hitting.

Here,s where i'm stuck

 if i have 6 out's from 47 remaining cards. don't that make me just under 6.5-1 underdog,since 6x6 is 36

 where as the chance using the rule of 4 has me at just over 3-1 underdog. what am i missing and what is the real way to work out the odds.

cheers
dumb arse .
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Royal Flush
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« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2005, 09:28:33 PM »

Your forgetting the turn AND the river.
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bundle
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« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2005, 09:44:08 PM »

ok well would you mind telling me what dog i am here
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Royal Flush
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« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2005, 09:53:07 PM »

You are 25% to win, 3-1.
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