to push or wait

[boldie]

you didnt get the option to change your cars to 67s allthough i will suggest that to yogi as a new game for the future

 

[LuckyLloyd]

it's fair enough that you want to push here..Like I said previously..unless I lose a big part of my stack the hand before I won't be in this situation as I will have pushed earlier.

What range would you call all-in with though in late position against a serial raiser when you have 5bb's left?

Yo, serial raisers tend to tighten up their open raising range when someone is in the blinds with 4 BBs behind. So their hand is always better than random - and your hand will be random.

That said, if we fold A4 UTG here, and next hand third to act or later opens the pot 3x and it folds to me, I have to get 4BBs arrr in when there is already 2.5 in the pot. So, I dunno, I guess I call Q7o+.

[doubleup]

Maths? Don't bang on about something like it's fact until YOU DO THE FUCKING MATHS.

This is a shove. And it really, really isn't close at all.

I have done the maths and in isolation this push is ev- (if called by any better hand), so it is closer than you are making out.

[Longy]

i'm aware of the equations the ICM calc uses. i have used it myself for SnGs ect. and can do them in my head cause i'm a snotty arrogant student.
however, you need to consider the calling range of your opponents a little more. basically. if you get called you're dominated a huge % of the time when you shove with a rag ace. whereas if you shove with sooted rags you're actually alot better off against the hands you're likely to get called with.

my point is. if you shove A4o here. you shove ANY TWO CARDS here. ke?

I would suggest you start you calculations again as not a4o is alot stronger than any two cards here and should be in your top 35% shoving range, IT IS superior to shoving 104s and is equivalent to shoving j7s or similar.

As for calling range give me a good range, this is a good example where actually the wider they call it is becomes slight -EV  (this is for sngs) and then become +ev again once they start calling really wide. The tighter they call, than my prescribed range it becomes +ev due to the amount of time your opponents fold.

Applying this logic to MTT's should give you a base for pushing ranges, but it is different as payout structures mean that pushing wider is almost always correct.

Seriously the only other person talking sense in this thread is Lloyd, but then again thats no surprise.

[snoopy1239]

With just 6 at the table, you have to push an Ace. You're unlikely to find a better hand if you let the blinds pass, especially considering (1) people are taking your first move away from you and (2) you won't have enough to push off players behind you. 10-handed, I fold, because I'll have more chances to find a hand on the next round, knowing that I'm going to get called.

[JungleCat03]

I push any two with less than 5 bbs utg esp with antes. This is fairly standard in my mind.

Surely it's either push now or call allin next hand in the BB and as you have a better than average hand now and a modicum of FE which is all you need (assuming your opponents calling range only ever dominates you, which is too tight a range anyway, you only need a fold about 20% of the time for this to be +EV)... ship away.

Letting the blinds go through you seems suicidal as you may only be doubling to 7-8 BBs or less if you survive your double up attempt in the next round (when you will have almost 0 fold equity).

[Royal Flush]

This is a trivially easy shove with any 2 cards, when you find a hand that actually runs fairly close against the BB's calling range even better!

Passing here is a massive losing play.

Never surrender your fold equity, it is your main short stacked weapon.

[Ironside]

I push any two with less than 5 bbs utg esp with antes. This is fairly standard in my mind.

Surely it's either push now or call allin next hand in the BB and as you have a better than average hand now and a modicum of FE which is all you need (assuming your opponents calling range only ever dominates you, which is too tight a range anyway, you only need a fold about 20% of the time for this to be +EV)... ship away.

Letting the blinds go through you seems suicidal as you may only be doubling to 7-8 BBs or less if you survive your double up attempt in the next round.

This is a trivially easy shove with any 2 cards, when you find a hand that actually runs fairly close against the BB's calling range even better!

Passing here is a massive losing play.

Never surrender your fold equity, it is your main short stacked weapon.

i agree with both of you

but a couple of well known BIG players thought i should of waited which is why i posted here

[Longy]

I think alot of big name players play shortstacked not particularly well. As they don't understand the mathematics behind it all, you only have to look at the full tilt/pokerstars pro's playing sng's online, I can't think of one who isn't considered to be a massive donator in these games.

Names like: Barry Greenstein, Daniel Negreanu, Allen Cunningham etc.

[Ironside]

i said big players not names

as in they play more than me at a bigger level and have more experiance

[Longy]

i said big players not names

as in they play more than me at a bigger level and have more experiance

Same still prob applies but even more so but of course i don't know who commented on the hand.

[Royal Flush]

I push any two with less than 5 bbs utg esp with antes. This is fairly standard in my mind.

Surely it's either push now or call allin next hand in the BB and as you have a better than average hand now and a modicum of FE which is all you need (assuming your opponents calling range only ever dominates you, which is too tight a range anyway, you only need a fold about 20% of the time for this to be +EV)... ship away.

Letting the blinds go through you seems suicidal as you may only be doubling to 7-8 BBs or less if you survive your double up attempt in the next round.

This is a trivially easy shove with any 2 cards, when you find a hand that actually runs fairly close against the BB's calling range even better!

Passing here is a massive losing play.

Never surrender your fold equity, it is your main short stacked weapon.

i agree with both of you

but a couple of well known BIG players thought i should of waited which is why i posted here

Big winners or big losers?

[doubleup]

You ppl do know that fold equity is about getting hands that should call to fold?  There is virtually no fold equity with this hand.  You do realise that winning poker is about our opponents mistakes?  There is virtually no chance of our opponents making a mistake here.   With this hand you have about a 60% chance of running into a pair or a better ace.  Pushing j8 here is a much better play than pushing a4.

[LuckyLloyd]

You ppl do know that fold equity is about getting hands that should call to fold?  There is virtually no fold equity with this hand.  You do realise that winning poker is about our opponents mistakes?  There is virtually no chance of our opponents making a mistake here.   With this hand you have about a 60% chance of running into a pair or a better ace.  Pushing j8 here is a much better play than pushing a4.

You're wrong. Show me your maths.

Oh, and - it is more accurate to say that winning poker is about making plus EV decisions.

[doubleup]

You ppl do know that fold equity is about getting hands that should call to fold?  There is virtually no fold equity with this hand.  You do realise that winning poker is about our opponents mistakes?  There is virtually no chance of our opponents making a mistake here.   With this hand you have about a 60% chance of running into a pair or a better ace.  Pushing j8 here is a much better play than pushing a4.

You're wrong. Show me your maths.

Oh, and - it is more accurate to say that winning poker is about making plus EV decisions.

9 better aces = 108/1225 any pair = 72/1225 

1- (180/1225) =.853~ 

.853^6 = .385~

1-.385 =.61

J8 runs into less dominated hands and obv has much more fold equity. e.g Q8, j9 (Although having looked at this at bit more j8 is about the same in ev terms if called by any pair or a5+).  So they are both slightly ev- in isolation on this basis.  I don't see how someone with Ironside's table image (deserved or not) is going to get called with a worse hand and tbh the biggest problem with royal flush's advice is that it generally only applies to someone with his image who will get looked up with a worse hand.

Overall I do agree that this is a push if you take the view that you should push when it only slightly ev- because of blinds.  I don't think this is a push though with 6bbs so to characterise it as a no brainer isn't correct.