What did i do, what should i do?

[b4matt]

Sigh... i hate learning.. it hurts so much

Thanks for the advice guys. Your making a lot of suggestions about things which are very different to my current thinking.

[boldie]

Sigh... i hate learning.. it hurts so much

lol..I know what you mean..it hurts less on Blonde than in a live game where you do your chippies in though

[doubleup]

Plus, we have position on the 3 bettor. So if the flop comes low we just play poker with position on the player who has shown the most strength. There will be 1500 in the pot and 9.5k behind - so we can do a lot of different things after the flop and we don't have to go broke.

We don't have position on the 3 bettor.  

I do agree broadly with the principles in the rest of your post and this is the kind of play that I would aspire to, but KK OOP vs 2 other players is a very tricky spot and sometimes due to your skill level it is better to take a line that although will only ever win a small pot, avoids losing a big one.

[b4matt]

Your right i would still be oop, however- If i just call and i do have him on AA, i can still get away, it don't cost me any more AND
i get the opportunity to spike a set. Really i knew where i was in the hand so to re-pop was just bad play.

[doubleup]

Your right i would still be oop, however- If i just call and i do have him on AA, i can still get away, it don't cost me any more AND
i get the opportunity to spike a set. Really i knew where i was in the hand so to re-pop was just bad play.

So you are saying that you are going to look into his soul and check fold an 882 flop?

[LuckyLloyd]

Sorry I misread the original post as the re - raise coming from the blinds.

BTW DOUBLEUP:

We can't win a tournament without accumulating chips. We will be unable to just sit there and always take the "safety first" line; and just hope that we get dealt enough to win. I mean, we will run hot enough on occassion to get some results playing like that. But overtime we will not finish deep enough in the money to cover our buyins over a 12 month period (plus travel + accomodation + rake  ).

As such, it's not something that we can talk of aspiring to. My post is really basic stuff that we absolutely MUST get right if we want to be winning tournament players. We need to get to the point where we are actively looking for the line that maximises our EV.

As a tournament player who plays long structure events; works a fulltime job; and travels distances to play the games I want - I sometimes have the inclination to play safe and end hands quickly - thus maximising my chances to survive. This urge is compounded by the fact that I had my breakthrough result playing like a nit and running like the sun for three days. So I understand the mentallity behind being concerned about "tournament life" and "finding out where we're at". It's a struggle to do the right thing at times. But that is all part of the discipline that is required to play winningt poker - and therefore maximise our chances to win.

So, sometimes the right decision is the big laydown when we "could" be ahead. Or it is calling and taking a flop when we "might make a mistake".

This hand is interesting because it carries two difficult decision points:

- Dealing with the 500 raise
- Dealing with the 5000 raise

To his credit Matt made a great decision on the second part. And hopefully he will gain something in relation to the first.

Good luck.

[boldie]

No but flushy has a point if he says "Check calling on the flop might scare him off and get you to a cheap showdown"..something to be said for that.

[LuckyLloyd]

Also, just one final way of rationalising why calling the 500 is better:

For those who like the idea of making it 1500 for the purposes of information, consider that if you just call this 500 raise there will be 1575 in the pot going to the flop. It is reasonable to assume that the 3 - bettor has JJ+ // AKo+; and the guy in the middle 66+ // AQo+. So:

- We are 80 / 20 FTW;
- We are 20 / 80 FTW;
- We are 70 / 30 FTW;

By this I mean, we are way ahead or way behind. Therefore, this is not a spot where we need to worry about protecting our hand. Our opponents, if behind, are satistically unlikely to improve.

Now, in terms of gaining info - it is true that a re - pop to 1500 should provide us with excellent info on where we are. In that it is logical to assume that a re - raise from him is AA 90% of the time. KK, QQ, AK the rest. So you might say that making it 1500 either wins you a small pot or allows you to confidently fold and avoid losing a potentially big pot.

But wait!!

Lets say we call the 500 and we decide that we are going to check / call one bet on EVERY single flop. That bet into a 1500 pot is generally going to be 800 - 1300 chips. So assuming it goes check, check, bet - you can call and peel a turncard for a price similiar to what you were willing to expend preflop.

Obviously, it may go check, bet, raise - in which case it would be bad to call oop for a turn. However, in that scenario we can probably be as sure we are beat as we would be to a 5 - bet preflop.

What is my point?

My point is that, whereas you may think that making iot 1500 is the easiest way to find out "where we are" in the hand. By calling the 500, we are simply delaying the decision point where we make the decision on what to do. But for a similair cost in terms of chips, we get to see three or four cards. We can always spike a King by then - but we would have to conclude that our information should be much more complete after peeling four cards than it is preflop.

And, bear in mind that the 3 - bettor may bet a lot of flops and check back a lot of turns for pot control even when he has AA.

It just seems to me that there is absolutely no good reason to make it 1500 chips to go preflop. It is much, much more efficient for us to get that extra 1000 or so chips in later in the hand.

[LuckyLloyd]

No but flushy has a point if he says "Check calling on the flop might scare him off and get you to a cheap showdown"..something to be said for that.

Boldie, I was typing while you posted - so my last post expands on that idea a little also.

[doubleup]

Sorry I misread the original post as the re - raise coming from the blinds.

BTW DOUBLEUP:

We can't win a tournament without accumulating chips. We will be unable to just sit there and always take the "safety first" line; and just hope that we get dealt enough to win. I mean, we will run hot enough on occassion to get some results playing like that. But overtime we will not finish deep enough in the money to cover our buyins over a 12 month period (plus travel + accomodation + rake  ).

As such, it's not something that we can talk of aspiring to. My post is really basic stuff that we absolutely MUST get right if we want to be winning tournament players. We need to get to the point where we are actively looking for the line that maximises our EV.

As a tournament player who plays long structure events; works a fulltime job; and travels distances to play the games I want - I sometimes have the inclination to play safe and end hands quickly - thus maximising my chances to survive. This urge is compounded by the fact that I had my breakthrough result playing like a nit and running like the sun for three days. So I understand the mentallity behind being concerned about "tournament life" and "finding out where we're at". It's a struggle to do the right thing at times. But that is all part of the discipline that is required to play winningt poker - and therefore maximise our chances to win.

So, sometimes the right decision is the big laydown when we "could" be ahead. Or it is calling and taking a flop when we "might make a mistake".

This hand is interesting because it carries two difficult decision points:

- Dealing with the 500 raise
- Dealing with the 5000 raise

To his credit Matt made a great decision on the second part. And hopefully he will gain something in relation to the first.

Good luck.

LLoyd you really are underestmating the skill required here not to make a big mistake post-flop either by folding incorrectly or not folding incorrectly.  I have seen well regarded players taking early baths in this spot.  I've also seen well regarded players taking Matts line and getting away from the hand.  I don't think that anyone is giving up much to the field by playing this situation in a risk averse manner.

[boldie]

No but flushy has a point if he says "Check calling on the flop might scare him off and get you to a cheap showdown"..something to be said for that.

Boldie, I was typing while you posted - so my last post expands on that idea a little also.

thanks for that mate..

[LuckyLloyd]

LLoyd you really are underestmating the skill required here not to make a big mistake post-flop either by folding incorrectly or not folding incorrectly.  I have seen well regarded players taking early baths in this spot.  I've also seen well regarded players taking Matts line and getting away from the hand.  I don't think that anyone is giving up much to the field by playing this situation in a risk averse manner.

I'm not saying that won't happen - but I think you are underestimating just how big of a mistake 4 - betting to 1500 preflop is.

[b4matt]

My re-take on this (with the wonderful power of hindsight as influence) is-

I smooth call the 500, and i suspect the other caller calls (looking for a q or a flop without an ace).

The flop gives me a problem as it most likely comes down without any paint, as first to act i may well check raise this flop- this would cost me more than the 1500 total outlay. However i may spike. Either way, unless the flop comes Ace high, i doubt very much i get away without losing more chips.

Post flop action highly hyperthetical of course.

I dont think my play was awful by any stretch, i also had a physical read on this guy and he looked like he had aces lol.

Like you lloyd i have had a good few results and most of my best results where in a period of naievty (fearless ignorance).

My style has evolved through good and bad periods over the last 3 years and i'm probably a better player now than then- however, i am leaving chips behind and missing value- this is shown in my mid tournament game where i'm running low and so i need good advice on chip accumulation and not missing spots.

I also agree that the law of averages plays a strong part in your and flushies game and folding KK pre flop is a -ev long term. However if short term, i can avoid the AA v KK, then my long term ev is surely even better.

Finally- showing hands- its generally foolish imo, and not something i do a lot (there is occasion it is helpful). This was an occasion where i just needed to know and although the rest of the table gained info on me, after he showed me his Aces, i played the comp like a freeroll, and ironically got knocked when my JJ ran into Aces, AIPF 2 off the dough.

I'm still learning and looking to be a better player, all advice is appreciated and the different views on how to play this hand in this situation is very enlightening.

Cheers guys

[AlexMartin]

 There is no rational argument you can give me as to why re-raising to 1500 preflop is a TERRIBLY BAD idea with KK in this spot. It definitely does not allow your oppo's to play perfectly against you postflop unless they are good enough to make you fold winning hands. It aint terribly likely someone is gonna bluff for stacks early on here. Ok, so your range has been narrowed, but thats not the end of the world when we are getting 15% of our stack in pre.

Allowing AA to play perfectly against you should be secondary thought process no?.  People say this allows opponent to set mine you perfectly postflop- who gives a fuck, you gave them incorrect effective implied odds preflop. Im not giving 7.5/1 im gonna use a min of 10/1 as you have to hit a set AND get oppo's stack.

 As played Matt doesnt go broke, if he flats then he is gonna lose a whole heap more postflop. Defining your hand can be very wrong in some instances, but i dont think its terrible here. This is the 1st hand of the tournament.

[Royal Flush]

My point is that, whereas you may think that making iot 1500 is the easiest way to find out "where we are" in the hand. By calling the 500, we are simply delaying the decision point where we make the decision on what to do. But for a similair cost in terms of chips, we get to see three or four cards. We can always spike a King by then - but we would have to conclude that our information should be much more complete after peeling four cards than it is preflop.

And, bear in mind that the 3 - bettor may bet a lot of flops and check back a lot of turns for pot control even when he has AA.

Not only that we see more cards we are also calling the flop bet against a wider range than KK+ so we see more cards and get more money in ahead!


It's almost certain that your oppo will check the turn behind if he bets the flop here as a smooth call from you looks so much like a set its unreal. My line would be check call the ~1k bet, check the turn and fire 1k on the river, if he happens to bet the turn then i am letting it go.

Re-raising to 1500 is not tragic, it does make the hand a lot easier to play, but it also loses us a lot of value.

Oh and obviously showing is very bad, it invites people to walk all over you. Like those people who when facing a button raise at the end of a tournament show an Ace in the BB and pass, it's like a big neon sign saying "please steal my blinds all night long"