Constructive criticism required

[LuckyLloyd]

Posted by: cooker3

Everytime I read a Mantis post. It takes me back to my school days and reading Hamlet when Polonius had 1 of his speeches. A just never ending barrage of words but when you look at the substance, not much there.

A never ending barrage of words that lacks any real substance is an interesting way to describe Hamlet.

The speeches by Polonius.

[kinboshi]

"Though this be madness, yet there is method in 't."

[madasahatstand]

Yes its the battle of the egos, fun to watch while its an even match but not so good when it turns into a 'lets get mantis' thread. Good on you mantis for continuing to come out fighting while the school bullies have their digs. This is the very reason a lot people dont have the confidence to post stuff about their own hands on here. We dont all know how to play perfect poker and if I grew an ego as big as some on here, I really dont think I'd ever want to.

 Blonde, if you are serious about getting more people involved in the PHA thread it might be an idea to have some regular posters who are open enough to debate and not ridicule.  I hope that comes over as constructive criticism and not downright rude

[madasahatstand]

Everytime I read a Mantis post. It takes me back to my school days and reading Hamlet when Polonius had 1 of his speeches. A just never ending barrage of words but when you look at the substance, not much there.

some might argue with this........  a quote from http://nd.essortment.com/whoispolonius_rgjo.htm  when i googled it. I might not agree with some of M's poker moves but c'mon, the bell is ringing so you better get back to school


'Many literature buffs believe that the character of Polonius in Shakespeare's Hamlet is nothing but a rambler, spouting insights that sound wise on the surface but are shallow upon further exploration. I do not agree. The aforementioned line occurs during the famous speech that near its conclusion, professes the words, "To thine own self be true". The actual truth is that Polonius has great depth and insight into himself and the minds and souls of the other characters. How else could one explain the stark wisdom that is emitted toward the close of Polonius' long-winded observation? This was Shakespeare's way of telling us that Polonius was not just a simple advisor with a propensity for egotism, but an oddly complex, well-rounded man.'

[cooker3]

*sigh*

A poker hand analysis board is just that, a board where we analyse hands we all play and see can we play better and improve from our mistakes. Nobody plays perfect, we all have hands where we are nearly embarrased by thinking of it. If you post a hand and people criticise how you play a hand then that is a good thing. It will make you think about a hand and hopefully improve and ensure you don't make the same mistake in future.
You have to be able take criticism. If people are scared about posting here then seriously don't be. Nobody is perfect, we've all done it and you will learn so so much. Is a small bit of embarrasment really worth losing knowledge or information which potentially can be worth huge amounts of money?

As for accusals of "schoolyard bullies" which I guess is at me amongst others. It is not like that. I have not personally attacked Mantis in anyway, I don't know the guy, sure he is sound in real life and I have no issue with him as an person but when someone posts something on a poker theory board which I feel to be incorrect then I and others should be applauded for it as long as it doesn't get personal. He will learn(hopefully) as will others reading it. If I am wrong then I expect even hope that someone corrects me and tells me I am wrong. I learn and are a better player for it.

Now as for all opinions are valid. There are a lot of styles in poker, there are lots of ways to be play hands, absolutely but there are somethings which are just downright wrong and incorrect and when someone says otherwise saying it's their opinion so it can't be wrong it simply false and not beneficial for anyone reading this board and sooner people learn that the better.

[madasahatstand]

*sigh*

A poker hand analysis board is just that, a board where we analyse hands we all play and see can we play better and improve from our mistakes. Nobody plays perfect, we all have hands where we are nearly embarrased by thinking of it. If you post a hand and people criticise how you play a hand then that is a good thing. It will make you think about a hand and hopefully improve and ensure you don't make the same mistake in future.
You have to be able take criticism. If people are scared about posting here then seriously don't be. Nobody is perfect, we've all done it and you will learn so so much. Is a small bit of embarrasment really worth losing knowledge or information which potentially can be worth huge amounts of money?

As for accusals of "schoolyard bullies" which I guess is at me amongst others. It is not like that. I have not personally attacked Mantis in anyway, I don't know the guy, sure he is sound in real life and I have no issue with him as an person but when someone posts something on a poker theory board which I feel to be incorrect then I and others should be applauded for it as long as it doesn't get personal. He will learn(hopefully) as will others reading it. If I am wrong then I expect even hope that someone corrects me and tells me I am wrong. I learn and are a better player for it.

Now as for all opinions are valid. There are a lot of styles in poker, there are lots of ways to be play hands, absolutely but there are somethings which are just downright wrong and incorrect and when someone says otherwise saying it's their opinion so it can't be wrong it simply false and not beneficial for anyone reading this board and sooner people learn that the better.

yes I agree and you make sense but to openly criticise without it being constructive is not good at all. Its not very educational at all, just looks like a bunch of people who want to be right. Here's a quote from tikay from a while back...

Collectively, the Mods must have over a hundred PM's from Members who say they have been deterred from asking for advice on the PHA as there are so often sarcstic responses.

This PHA Board could be soooooo good, if only......

I dont think I need to add more to that:)

As for calling you a school bully- not at all, you are simply joining in with the bullies (maybe its peer pressure....lol) but fuelling the fire and keeping it going. Everyone to their own but maybe you should look at your own post about Blonde being more decent than 2+2 and try to go along with that culture and ethos? Each to their own though:)

Mad
PS, dont 'sigh' me because its rather irritating when i'm trying to make a point but then again hardly surprising given your posts to date Some people thought the world was flat once apon a time and that you could have fallen off the edge. Without differing opinions we would be stale and boring and wouldn't learn much at all. Look at what doubleup said and take heed. Dont you want folk to think outside your box, even when you think they are completely wrong? Some of 'feel' discussion will aid some people

[kinboshi]

*sigh*

A poker hand analysis board is just that, a board where we analyse hands we all play and see can we play better and improve from our mistakes. Nobody plays perfect, we all have hands where we are nearly embarrased by thinking of it. If you post a hand and people criticise how you play a hand then that is a good thing. It will make you think about a hand and hopefully improve and ensure you don't make the same mistake in future.
You have to be able take criticism. If people are scared about posting here then seriously don't be. Nobody is perfect, we've all done it and you will learn so so much. Is a small bit of embarrasment really worth losing knowledge or information which potentially can be worth huge amounts of money?

Agree with that totally.  Which is why ad hominem attacks are unnecessary.  Criticise the advice, condemn the way a hand is played, even mock it if you must - but there's no need to criticise or mock the actual person.

[Royal Flush]

Collectively, the Mods must have over a hundred PM's from Members who say they have been deterred from asking for advice on the PHA as there are so often sarcstic responses.

This PHA Board could be soooooo good, if only......

I dont think I need to add more to that:)t what doubleup said and take heed. Dont you want folk to think outside your box, even when you think they are completely wrong? Some of 'feel' discussion will aid some people

Your quite right, blonde poker just isn't ready for a PHA board, that i think is the problem, the majority of members would rather talk about things not related to poker rather than improving their games.

I will continue to post in PHA but its impossible to pussy foot around when people have mangled hands, a spade after all is a spade.

Part of learning is the revelation that you are uneducated in certain things, if that causes embarrassment to some people then they can carry on as they are steadily losing, but hopefully not more than they can afford.

As for the whole Mantis debate, the guy is clearly intelligent and writes better than most, i personally feel his poker strat is very lacking, as long as he continues to debate here then i will continue to point out what i believe to be flaws in his strat, i am sure he expects nothing less than that, it is the nature of PHA.

[cooker3]

Collectively, the Mods must have over a hundred PM's from Members who say they have been deterred from asking for advice on the PHA as there are so often sarcstic responses.

This PHA Board could be soooooo good, if only......

I dont think I need to add more to that:)t what doubleup said and take heed. Dont you want folk to think outside your box, even when you think they are completely wrong? Some of 'feel' discussion will aid some people

Your quite right, blonde poker just isn't ready for a PHA board, that i think is the problem, the majority of members would rather talk about things not related to poker rather than improving their games.

I will continue to post in PHA but its impossible to pussy foot around when people have mangled hands, a spade after all is a spade.

Part of learning is the revelation that you are uneducated in certain things, if that causes embarrassment to some people then they can carry on as they are steadily losing, but hopefully not more than they can afford.

As for the whole Mantis debate, the guy is clearly intelligent and writes better than most, i personally feel his poker strat is very lacking, as long as he continues to debate here then i will continue to point out what i believe to be flaws in his strat, i am sure he expects nothing less than that, it is the nature of PHA.

This is what I was getting at except this is written better
1 thing I will say about Mantis, he would likely kick my ass at an writing contest

[Tragic]

If people want to attack you personally that really is there problem. It's the internet so you should care even less. Post your thoughts, criticism when you feel you have something to add, read critical advice impassively when your play is getting criticized. The point of this board is self improvement as a poker player and helping out other people when you see their mistakes; that can also help you however when your own advice gets criticized .

[madasahatstand]

Collectively, the Mods must have over a hundred PM's from Members who say they have been deterred from asking for advice on the PHA as there are so often sarcstic responses.

This PHA Board could be soooooo good, if only......

I dont think I need to add more to that:)t what doubleup said and take heed. Dont you want folk to think outside your box, even when you think they are completely wrong? Some of 'feel' discussion will aid some people

Your quite right, blonde poker just isn't ready for a PHA board, that i think is the problem, the majority of members would rather talk about things not related to poker rather than improving their games.

I think BLonde is ready for PHA but what is required is some strategy around how to engage with more members if that is a priority for Blonde. People partake in non poker related discussion because its a community forum. From the business end there is no sense of how to get people involved in analysis. Its the same people all the time and as Tikay says, the sarcasm flies out and on this occassion it got very personal around one member. I'd be interested in why you  think Blonde is not ready? Maybe people dont want your style of debate but it has all the fondations to be a really good learning environment and indeed it can be. Ive learned loads here, I learn from a lot of the PHA threads and I guess loads of other folk do to. Saying its not ready is in my opinion is not true. It just lacks direction and focus.

[Royal Flush]

the sarcasm flies out and on this occassion it got very personal around one member.

I don't think it got personal, i think it stayed on topic.

I'd be interested in why you  think Blonde is not ready?

Mainly because people want to be treated with kid gloves, they don't like being told they have done something wrong.

This is evident by the apparent hundreds who don't feel they can post on PHA, i think it tallys to more than the total number of regular posters on the forum, that's quite an amount who are not ready.

[totalise]

the sarcasm flies out and on this occassion it got very personal around one member.

I don't think it got personal, i think it stayed on topic.

I'd be interested in why you  think Blonde is not ready?

Mainly because people want to be treated with kid gloves, they don't like being told they have done something wrong.

This is evident by the apparent hundreds who don't feel they can post on PHA, i think it tallys to more than the total number of regular posters on the forum, that's quite an amount who are not ready.

they want people to explain why... look at the typical 2p2 attitude, someone posts a hand, and the response is something like:

"wow this hand makes my eyes bleed and you are a losing player, give up the game before you lose your net worth, Id love to play you HU4ROLLZ, you are an idiot"

and then their analysis when pressed is:

"bet flop, cr turn"

neither of these posts are a shred of use to anyone at all, and this is whats starting to happen on here. The whole point of is where people analyse hands, not just to be told what other people would do, and have those other people tell them in a non-descriptive authoritarian tone.  People dont want kid gloves, they just want people to treat them as humans rather then lesser beings.

Almost every winning player at poker has benefited from reading archives from places like 2p2, and almost all the posters there in the old days spoke/typed/explained in a very respectful manner, so gaining from that experience, and extending that same privelage to the current crop of new players shouldn't be too difficult.

[Eck]

the sarcasm flies out and on this occassion it got very personal around one member.

I don't think it got personal, i think it stayed on topic.

I'd be interested in why you  think Blonde is not ready?

Mainly because people want to be treated with kid gloves, they don't like being told they have done something wrong.

This is evident by the apparent hundreds who don't feel they can post on PHA, i think it tallys to more than the total number of regular posters on the forum, that's quite an amount who are not ready.

they want people to explain why... look at the typical 2p2 attitude, someone posts a hand, and the response is something like:

"wow this hand makes my eyes bleed and you are a losing player, give up the game before you lose your net worth, Id love to play you HU4ROLLZ, you are an idiot"

and then their analysis when pressed is:

"bet flop, cr turn"

neither of these posts are a shred of use to anyone at all, and this is whats starting to happen on here. The whole point of is where people analyse hands, not just to be told what other people would do, and have those other people tell them in a non-descriptive authoritarian tone.  People dont want kid gloves, they just want people to treat them as humans rather then lesser beings.

Almost every winning player at poker has benefited from reading archives from places like 2p2, and almost all the posters there in the old days spoke/typed/explained in a very respectful manner, so gaining from that experience, and extending that same privelage to the current crop of new players shouldn't be too difficult.

POTW 

[totalise]

*sigh*

A poker hand analysis board is just that, a board where we analyse hands we all play and see can we play better and improve from our mistakes. Nobody plays perfect, we all have hands where we are nearly embarrased by thinking of it. If you post a hand and people criticise how you play a hand then that is a good thing. It will make you think about a hand and hopefully improve and ensure you don't make the same mistake in future.
You have to be able take criticism. If people are scared about posting here then seriously don't be. Nobody is perfect, we've all done it and you will learn so so much. Is a small bit of embarrasment really worth losing knowledge or information which potentially can be worth huge amounts of money?

Agree with that totally.  Which is why ad hominem attacks are unnecessary.  Criticise the advice, condemn the way a hand is played, even mock it if you must - but there's no need to criticise or mock the actual person.

no, mocking is unacceptable. It really is not rocket science. If you want to help others get better, and as i said before, almost every winning player has had others helping them, either via archives or the fortune of getting someone to help them with their game, without a fee,   they should be very willing to help others, and they should do it in a more respectful manner. Criticism is obligatory, but do it in a manner where you explain why something is wrong, dont do it in a manner where you come across like your shit dont stink and the other person is an amoeba for *gasp* not being as good at poker as you.

One of the biggest trueisms in poker is that almost no-one is anywhere near as good as they think they are, and that inherent arrogance busts bankrolls much more efficiently then it builds them, so just show more respect, think of posters as people, and explain WHY you think actions are wrong, instead of just telling people they are wrong.