Worst pass of the year? QQ on undercard rainbow flop. Cmon rip me.

[AlexMartin]

Would like opinions here. Villain knows im normally LAG but can play tag 2. Villain is standard TAG but can mix up on occasion. Am i good here ever?

Really cant see him doing this w JJ/1010 and only really w sets/AA on occasion. Still been grilled for passing. Also what do ppl think of flop line? I know its pretty retarded but thought it conveys to villain im going nowhere and he STILL jams.

Totalise and Longy's thoughts please as we are pretty opposite in our thinking.


GAME #770848013: Texas Hold'em NL $2.00/$4.00 2007-12-23 21:56:18
Table Sirius
Seat 1: KwldJJk ($321.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Pikku2nen ($137.00 in chips)
Seat 5: nikinblinds ($482.90 in chips)
Seat 6: 123Dagger ($332.55 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: xkingxs ($341.55 in chips)
Seat 10: mheppner ($320.86 in chips)
xkingxs: Post SB $2.00
mheppner: Post BB $4.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nikinblinds [   ]
KwldJJk: Fold
Pikku2nen: Fold
nikinblinds: Raise $14.00
123Dagger: Fold
xkingxs: Call $12.00
mheppner: Fold
*** FLOP *** [ ]
xkingxs: Check
nikinblinds: Bet $24.00
xkingxs: Raise $48.00
nikinblinds: Raise $100.00
xkingxs: Raise $152.00
nikinblinds: Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $353.00 Rake $3.00
xkingxs: wins $353.00

[totalise]

I'm always in 2 camps on hands like this, on the 1 hand i think to myself, the guy has  minraised TWICE on the flop, so it has to be a monster, but the second camp is that typically any solid player doesn't take this line with any good made hand, so its likely someone trying a cheap bluff.

I think the chances of him having AA are close to zero though, his actions indicate a hand much better then AA or a cheap bluff/semi bluff representing a monster.

Ultimately, I'll always live in the camp of ZOMG overpair and get it in, if hes a reg you lose a stack for info, but typically, when hands make no sense to me, I just get the stack in and hope for the best.

[temp0r]

surely a decent player doesn't min raise twice like this at this limit? is there not a chance he knows you well enough to know you've got an overpair but will / can lay it down on the flop. like totalise i'm thinking this is a clever cheap bluff and am almost resigned to wanting to pay to see it and check that its in his arsenal.

[totalise]

is there not a chance he knows you well enough to know you've got an overpair

I really doubt hes doing this coz he thinks Alex has an overpair, more like hes doing this coz alex opening range is prolly superwide and the flop texcture is so bland that it can look like they are both whipping out their e-peen to try and prove to each other which one is the longest, which is why id just get it in.

[riverdave]

Alex you big fairy you've played this hand like a pussy!
Really to ask him a serious question you should of made it $150 when he min raised you, now if he tanks you've asked a much more serious question and can re-evaluate. The way you've played it you've not really found out anything, in fact playing it this strange way may of been in your favour if you'd only tanked it in.
King's Cross Dave would not be calling here it's allin for me. I think you're either going to get shown 57/79 for a semi bluff  A8/99/1010/JJ or a set and without knowing the customer i'd say you have to be winning more times than you're not.

[boldie]

I agree...over the past few days I have seen you post hands where you move all in (HUGE overbets) with complete garbage (and then complain about being called by someone who's ahead )and now you min-raise? You played this like scared money compared to the other hands you posted. As played you might indeed have been behind..but I don't get the way you played this at all.

[AlexMartin]

I agree...over the past few days I have seen you post hands where you move all in (HUGE overbets) with complete garbage (and then complain about being called by someone who's ahead )and now you min-raise? You played this like scared money compared to the other hands you posted. As played you might indeed have been behind..but I don't get the way you played this at all.

Hi boldie. Srsly show me 1 hand iv posted where iv moved ai in a HUGE overbet with complete garbage and complain by being called by someone who's ahead. Would never happen (the post that is lol) and just not true tbh m8.
I take this line because i know oppo and think im beaten. I want to find out the strength of my hand and depending on my image want to get paid accordingly. Notes say he limit raises w big hands. I dont just follow the "yo i have big pair ship ship ai regardless line of thought (ok sometimes i do)." I used the flop 3bet to tell him his 8/semibluff/marginal hand is no good and i have him beaten and most importantly I AM COMMITED (which is obv a lie but he doesnt know that). He then says "fuck you and ur overpair, i have you beaten m8, lets get it all-in now when you cannot fold". Iv been grilled by 80% of the ppl iv spoken too about this hand but in the heat of the battle you go with ur instincts right?

[LuckyLloyd]

 

- "Asking serious questions"
- "Letting him know I'm not going anywhere"
- "Finding out where I am"

A villain who doesn't top - up his stack and does this on the flop isn't good. Just so there is no confusion on that point.

This hand is really simple. Call his flop min - raise to 48; peel a turn; re - evaluate; stack off a lot.

And lol at folding after you put 100 in there on the flop.

[boldie]

I agree...over the past few days I have seen you post hands where you move all in (HUGE overbets) with complete garbage (and then complain about being called by someone who's ahead )and now you min-raise? You played this like scared money compared to the other hands you posted. As played you might indeed have been behind..but I don't get the way you played this at all.

Hi boldie. Srsly show me 1 hand iv posted where iv moved ai in a HUGE overbet with complete garbage and complain by being called by someone who's ahead. Would never happen (the post that is lol) and just not true tbh m8.
I take this line because i know oppo and think im beaten. I want to find out the strength of my hand and depending on my image want to get paid accordingly. Notes say he limit raises w big hands. I dont just follow the "yo i have big pair ship ship ai regardless line of thought (ok sometimes i do)." I used the flop 3bet to tell him his 8/semibluff/marginal hand is no good and i have him beaten and most importantly I AM COMMITED (which is obv a lie but he doesnt know that). He then says "fuck you and ur overpair, i have you beaten m8, lets get it all-in now when you cannot fold". Iv been grilled by 80% of the ppl iv spoken too about this hand but in the heat of the battle you go with ur instincts right?

yeah you're right..I remembered the last hand from that "I run soo bad" post you made the other day..but you had 2 clubs and a gutshot nut straight draw there when you were called by someone with ace high (and fools end of a gutshot) so shouldn't have said the "moving in with complete garbage part"..apologies for that one.

You always have to go with your instincts I agree..but to fold here you have to be really sure of oppo having something bigger than you. If you do that's fine of course and you have to stick with it..it's one of those player dependant type things and where notes come in handy. I still don't like it the raise from his min check-raise to 100..there is no point to this raise, there really isn't. It's not enough to get him off the hand as it doesn't show any strenght..now it's true that you very well could have saves yourself 52$ there but to not call his bet there can't be right..I call and see the turn..if it looks safe I still get my chips in.

[Royal Flush]

I don't 3 bet flop, call and check raise turn, opens his range a lot wider.

[Longy]

Hmmm interesting one. What changes this hand is you haven't mentioned in OP is that your notes say "limit raises with big hands" which is kind of crucial in this hand.

Passing qq on a flop like this which has a number of draws on it for 85bb's I would say is rarely correct but this hand, he is showing pure strength.

My standard line here is to call his flop re raise and to shove over his bet on a safe turn. I think this maximises our equity against draws/smaller overpairs/bluffs. We fold out alot of the hands we beat out by repopping the flop or let a draw get there by making our 3bet too small.

If we are beat we end up getting the lot in anyway on the flop as im just shoving over his 4bet. I will admit that given our read and his line i think its close by the time he min raises again. Im just having a problem with the fact that you say he is good but he min raises twice on a drawy flop and hasn't topped up to 100bb's.

[AlexMartin]

- "Asking serious questions"
- "Letting him know I'm not going anywhere"
- "Finding out where I am"

A villain who doesn't top - up his stack and does this on the flop isn't good. Just so there is no confusion on that point.

This hand is really simple. Call his flop min - raise to 48; peel a turn; re - evaluate; stack off a lot.

And lol at folding after you put 100 in there on the flop.

This is exactly what im trying to avoid LL. I appreciate we both have very different ways of doing things and tbh im pretty sure ur lines/ways of thought are better but i do what works for me until i find something that works better. After all we all do things differently which is what makes poker so special right? Guy is not a mug fcs, not entirely sure why he didnt top-up but i wouldnt automatically say this is hard evidence that he is playing like a tit.

I have just found out that unless opponent is truly capable of moves (guy has shown 0 evidence of this), limit raises, ESP LMIT CR are either the nuts or a bluff and after 2 of them i was ready to believe.

[LuckyLloyd]

- "Asking serious questions"
- "Letting him know I'm not going anywhere"
- "Finding out where I am"

A villain who doesn't top - up his stack and does this on the flop isn't good. Just so there is no confusion on that point.

This hand is really simple. Call his flop min - raise to 48; peel a turn; re - evaluate; stack off a lot.

And lol at folding after you put 100 in there on the flop.

This is exactly what im trying to avoid LL. I appreciate we both have very different ways of doing things and tbh im pretty sure ur lines/ways of thought are better but i do what works for me until i find something that works better. After all we all do things differently which is what makes poker so special right? Guy is not a mug fcs, not entirely sure why he didnt top-up but i wouldnt automatically say this is hard evidence that he is playing like a tit.

I have just found out that unless opponent is truly capable of moves (guy has shown 0 evidence of this), limit raises, ESP LMIT CR are either the nuts or a bluff and after 2 of them i was ready to believe.

This board is dry and only has two possible draws: 75 or 97. When he check min - raises you this becomes a WA / WB scenario. He is either bluffing or has fuck all and is drawing to anywhere between 2 and 5 outs. Two pair combinations are very unlikely unless he is the type that defends oop with anytwo preflop (ditto the two straight draws that are out there. So, he either has 33 / 99 / JJ or you are miles ahead.

Therefore the best option here is to call the min - raise and check most turns to him. This keeps his range huge and will induce him to make a bluff at the pot a large percentage of the time. When you make it 100 with the intention of folding to further action you have chosen the absolute worst possible line. Making it 150 and calling a shove would be bad because you mostly get it in bad - but making it 100 for info or to see where you are or whatever is L O L.

Think about:

- The fact that you have now raised again thus defining your hand (which is horrendous btw). If he has the fucking goods doesn't he just shove now?
- The fact that once you make it 100 you will be getting over 2 : 1 on the rest of the chips to go in thus making a fold of QQ less and less profitable
- The fact that if he is dumb enough to check min - raise bluff in the first place why wouldn't he be stupid enough to try it again? People who check min - raise you like clever foxes are generally bad at poker.

How can you say "tbh im pretty sure ur lines/ways of thought are better but.." and keep a straight face? When you play and think like you indicate with your posts on this board you don't gain half as much information as you give away.

The most profitable way to play this hand is to just call the initial min - raise and get the rest of the money in on most turns. And it isn't close.

[AlexMartin]

Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=29907.msg614042#msg614042 date=1198498110]

- "Asking serious questions"
- "Letting him know I'm not going anywhere"
- "Finding out where I am"

A villain who doesn't top - up his stack and does this on the flop isn't good. Just so there is no confusion on that point.

This hand is really simple. Call his flop min - raise to 48; peel a turn; re - evaluate; stack off a lot.

And lol at folding after you put 100 in there on the flop.

This is exactly what im trying to avoid LL. I appreciate we both have very different ways of doing things and tbh im pretty sure ur lines/ways of thought are better but i do what works for me until i find something that works better. After all we all do things differently which is what makes poker so special right? Guy is not a mug fcs, not entirely sure why he didnt top-up but i wouldnt automatically say this is hard evidence that he is playing like a tit.

I have just found out that unless opponent is truly capable of moves (guy has shown 0 evidence of this), limit raises, ESP LMIT CR are either the nuts or a bluff and after 2 of them i was ready to believe.

This board is dry and only has two possible draws: 75 or 97. When he check min - raises you this becomes a WA / WB scenario. He is either bluffing or has fuck all and is drawing to anywhere between 2 and 5 outs. Never a set/AA? Two pair combinations are very unlikely unless he is the type that defends oop with anytwo preflop (ditto the two straight draws that are out there. So, he either has 33 / 99 / JJ or you are miles ahead.

Therefore the best option here is to call the min - raise and check most turns to him. This keeps his range huge and will induce him to make a bluff at the pot a large percentage of the time. When you make it 100 with the intention of folding to further action you have chosen the absolute worst possible line. Making it 150 and calling a shove would be bad because you mostly get it in bad - but making it 100 for info or to see where you are or whatever is L O L.

Think about:

- The fact that you have now raised again thus defining your hand (which is horrendous btw). If he has the fucking goods doesn't he just shove now?
- The fact that once you make it 100 you will be getting over 2 : 1 on the rest of the chips to go in thus making a fold of QQ less and less profitable
- The fact that if he is dumb enough to check min - raise bluff in the first place why wouldn't he be stupid enough to try it again? People who check min - raise you like clever foxes are generally bad at poker.

How can you say "tbh im pretty sure ur lines/ways of thought are better but.." and keep a straight face? When you play and think like you indicate with your posts on this board you don't gain half as much information as you give away.

The most profitable way to play this hand is to just call the initial min - raise and get the rest of the money in on most turns. And it isn't close.

Im not going to start another long ego thread but i just dont agree with this. We stack off so light 100BB deep its pretty horrendous and nearly all the time we get it in on the turn we are beaten. His range after min re-re raising is so fucking polarised im not going to piss away the rest despite getting 2:1.

 I like to know peoples ranges so i can ply my hand v theirs for maximum value. This is BETTING FOR INFORMATION and i dont care if you and whose army says its fundamentally wrong i plain dont agree. When villain knows my range is WIDE open he wont play back @ me the third time without the goods.

Specifically this hand is simple after a while. Player isnt bad enough to cold call oop in a HU pot with 57 or 79. He either has a set or overpair. Thanks for your opinion but im not converted.

I know its a pretty ugly hand from my perspective and i doubt i should ever fold this, but your reasoning doesnt convince me as much as others perspectives

 

surely a decent player doesn't min raise twice like this at this limit? is there not a chance he knows you well enough to know you've got an overpair but will / can lay it down on the flop. like totalise i'm thinking this is a clever cheap bluff and am almost resigned to wanting to pay to see it and check that its in his arsenal.

or this

I'm always in 2 camps on hands like this, on the 1 hand i think to myself, the guy has  minraised TWICE on the flop, so it has to be a monster, but the second camp is that typically any solid player doesn't take this line with any good made hand, so its likely someone trying a cheap bluff.

I think the chances of him having AA are close to zero though, his actions indicate a hand much better then AA or a cheap bluff/semi bluff representing a monster.

Ultimately, I'll always live in the camp of ZOMG overpair and get it in, if hes a reg you lose a stack for info, but typically, when hands make no sense to me, I just get the stack in and hope for the best.

.

[geeforce1]

I don't 3 bet flop, call and check raise turn, opens his range a lot wider.

how i normally play it too. it would be a more obvious play if he didnt min rr u on flop. it gets him into more trouble in the long run