Close Encounters of the Check-raise Kind

[Pyso]

This is my first post on Blonde Poker so hello to you all and a Happy New Year as well.

I would like tell you about a hand last night on the cash tables at the fantastic Dusk Till Dawn and if anyone wants to offer some constructive comments, feel free!


Cash Game at DTD, January 12th, 2008 NLHE £0.50/£1

Playing 9 handed from 10.30pm - 4.30am

The Situation

The table is loose, an all out limp-fest. Players have come and gone, all of them calling stations who have donked off their cash to someone else. I am still at the table despite being down because I know that the opportunity is there to make hay.

I have been card dead, particularly in position. I have an ultra tight image, but I have also won some pots trading on that image. I have been missing flops left right and centre. Early on, the one flop I hit, my opponent lucks out on the river for a split pot.

I do get Aces at one stage and actually double up. But generally I am perceived to be only playing good cards and I am finding it difficult to build a pot. I have won a few without the best hand so I can’t be too annoyed. I am just not prepared to play marginal hands out of position and/or only bet small when I have something, for fear of mass calling and de-valuation of my hand.

I have sat down with £75, not enough I know, but it is all I have after the missus has fleeced me this morning for the shopping... At one stage I am down to about £35.

(As an aside (miss this bit out if you want), I do get lucky on one occasion. I have 10,J suited and call what I think is a £3 raise only to discover that there has been a £15 raise which I have somehow missed, and that my announced call has to stand. However, the £15 raiser doesn’t seem to realise that I called by mistake - he is at the other end of the table and I don’t think he picks up on it. Anyway, the flop contains a Queen and a 9. I smile at him. I know my image is tight and that he doesn’t realise I called by mistake. Amazingly he checks and so do I. The turn is a 4. He checks again and so do I. The river is a King, completing my straight. I bet £15 and after a long deliberation he folds).

Anyway, this explains how I have around £65 at 4.30 in the morning and why am still hanging around, sure that I will soon have an opportunity to double up.

The Hand

I am UTG+1. The player to my right who is UTG, is from Leicester. He has a large stack. He has been hitting flops for fun. He does a lot of limping from early position, something I actually remind myself as he does it again just in front of me. He has said in an earlier exchange (when his flopped two pair beat me in a small pot) that he never bluffs. I take this comment with a large pinch of salt.

Anyway, I look down at pocket nines. I raise to £5. My thoughts are that this is not great positioning and I need to price this to get one or two callers at the most. Any less and it will be a 6 way pot and any more and I probably won’t get any action at all.

To my disappointment it is called three times, including matey from Leicester. I am more worried at this stage about being called by the guy to my left who I have flagged as a strong player.

The flop comes down Q, 10, 3.

UTG from Leicester checks. I need to find out where I stand, aware that I can trade on my tight image. I try to take the pot down immediately and raise  £15. Danger man and A N Other both fold, but matey doesn’t hesitate much and re-raises me to £30 - the minimum allowed.

My initial reaction is surprise. I think why such a small re-raise? I think he might be trying to push me off the pot because he thinks I am a folder. I think that my nines might still be good and that the call relative to the pot is a value proposition.

I call, albeit reluctantly. I genuinely can’t put him on a hand. I wonder if he has Q,10 but can’t imagine him, even him, calling a raise and two calls with that. Likewise a random hand containing a 10. I figure I must have at least a 50% chance of still being ahead.

The turn is another 10. (No made flush possible so far)

He checks again.

Now, I think to myself that I can’t see how that has changed much if my initial read is correct. If he is fishing (and I have seen him do this) then this hasn’t helped either. If I check I will give him a free card and I don’t want to do that. And anyway, if I check he will almost certainly bet the river and then I really won’t know where I am.

So, I push all-in, about £25 left. I do this because I still think my two pair is the best hand and also because it might be the only way to take the pot if he does just have a rag Queen.

I actually say to him, “Good luck if you have the Queen“, to which he replies, “No, I’ve got a full house.”

He starts counting out his chips to match my bet and then starts explaining why he plays ‘this hand’, because, “..in Leicester we call this the nuts hand because it always wins”

He turns over 10, 3

Yes, I could always put him on that! I mean he had to call a raise and two calls pre-flop with such a powerhouse. What a moron. Any player that always plays a ‘lucky hand’ is a moron.

I can still win if a 9 hits for a better full house but of course it doesn’t.

I don’t show.

As I am getting up to leave the guy opposite starts telling matey from Leicester how lucky he is.

(9,9 vs. 10,3 pre-flop is a 72% - 28% favourite I have just discovered in an attempt to make myself feel better)

I couldn’t agree more, but that doesn’t change the fact that I also made mistakes and my considered analysis is that they were these -


My pre-flop raise is either too much or not enough. That doesn’t make sense to begin with (!) but what I mean is that I should either have also limped in, knowing that on past form I could well get to see a value flop for what is after all, only a pair of nines, or I could over-bet it and try to take the pot there and then. Given my early position and the dynamics of the table, much as I hate to admit it, I actually think a limp here might have been the best play. (Of course, it was always likely that at least one over card would hit on the flop).

Once I am check-raised the alarm bells have to be going off. I know that the guy is a calling station. I know that he is hitting flops for fun. I have no idea what he can be calling me with. I really don’t have any information. There are two over cards to my nines. It is looking like I am in trouble but I manage to convince myself that I could still be good here because a) he can’t keep hitting flops all night (can he?) and b) he knows how ‘tight’ I am and he is now trying to push me off the pot (I have shown the ability to make some painful laydowns before now), and c) I just have a hard time believing he would call a raise and two calls with Q,10. I am also aware that people bet out on their draws.

Well, some potential flaws with my reasoning are thus:

Firstly, yes he can keep hitting flops. Secondly, why would he try to push me off the pot with a check-raise, and a minimum one at that? He would need psychic powers to think I'm bluffing in this spot. And why wouldn’t he have Q,10 ? I mean; he is impossible to put on a hand.

My all-in push on the turn is flawed also. It’s the classic, “Will only be called by a better hand” scenario.

A check behind him to see if I can hit a better hand, sensing that I was already beaten was the right play here. If he bets at the end (and maybe he wouldn’t have, I can‘t be totally sure) then I can cross that bridge when I come to it.

Yes, I was unlucky to have a moronic calling station play his lucky hand and actually hit it, but I didn’t adjust fully to what all the information was telling me. I also didn’t adjust to the fact that my level of analysis is perhaps over-cooked for this situation. If I could dumb it down a bit and try and see it from a calling station's point of view then might I have an easier time of it getting away from this nightmare hand? Is this a classic Ronseal hand?

The really useful aspect of this hand however is the demonstration of what the check-raise really means. Of course it was for the minimum. If he has the nuts, then it will be the minimum - he has to keep me involved and non-believing. Why would someone try and bluff off someone who has been consistently showing strength unless he was very, very sure that they themselves were bluffing? It’s just fraught with danger and for that reason a check-raise usually means exactly what it says on the tin.

Also, it has to be noted that the two hands that are getting me into the most trouble are 9,9 and 10,10. Anyone else find the same? Anyone else feel they could have got away from this once check raised? I know that one option was not to play the nines in early position in the first place but I would like some feedback assuming that the flop was seen.

Your thoughts please folks and thanks for reading this rather long-winded opening post!

Pyso

[totalise]

hi there,

I'd check fold this flop, Q10x flops multiway almost always hit one of the preflop callers range of hands, be it with a big draw or a better made hand, its not even worth making a c/bet.

better luck next time, and hide yer wallet from the missus so you can buy in full

[Pyso]

I agree about hiding the wallet, but the fridge was looking a bit barren - lol.

I usually do buy in full, but hey, I wanted to play poker and DTD is awesome.

I am seeing now in the cool, clear light of day (well, it's dark already actually) that yes the c-bet was a little optimistic but I still feel that this was a tricky hand to get away from.

I will be a bit more alert in the future!

And if you play anyone from Leicester watch out for that powerhouse 10,3 !!! LOL

Pyso

[boldie]

you "bet to find out where I stand"..that's just wrong.
UTG the only reason to raise with pocket 9's is to build a pot...personally I don't like it as you only hope to catch a set.
you "bet to find out where I stand"..that's just wrong.
 Your position sucks so betting out on the flop is a bluff and nothing more than that really..it's a clear fold when you get check-raised.


You did some self-analysis and indeed you made a hash of this hand...not a lot more to analyse, me thinks. Consider it a lesson and don't make the mistake again and it's 60£ well spent

[Pyso]

Ok boldie, fair comment.

I accept I didn't play the hand well on the flop but my thread was more along the lines of - would any one else find it a hard hand to get away from once I had made the dodgy c-bet?

I thought it was an interesting example of how totally flummoxed you can get by a player who is playing and calling with all sorts of holdings and how it can be easy to fall into the trap of thinking in a non-rational sense, "...he surely can't have hit that flop, the luckbox.."

I will approach the same situation differently next time. It's all about learning from our mistakes to make us better players.

Do you think a limp pre-flop was the play here? I'm pretty sure that there was a fair chance we would have seen a multi-way pot and that I could have let it go once the set didn't materialise. Trying to be fancy-dan didn't really help me here did it?!!

[Longy]

I think preflop is fine though limping to mainly hope to catch a set seems ok on this table.

I check fold this flop multiway, your hand is rarely good here and you don't fold out a ten here ever. I would insta fold the to the check raise, you are beat no two ways about it.

[Pyso]

The crazy thing is that earlier in the session I had played the same sort of holding (low to mid pocket pair) from early position in a similar manner and then let it go on a poor flop after facing some betting.

I suppose I just stayed at the table long enough for me to lose sight of the reality that I was beaten. It just shows how easy it is to second guess yourself and try to mix it up when maybe it wasn't broken in the first place..

I also let the guy get to me because I could see that he was a fishy luckbox and it was starting to wind me up, not in an outwardly obvious way but in a way that made me deviate from a sound game plan. Or is that just a posh way of describing tilt, however subtle?!

[boldie]

I also let the guy get to me because I could see that he was a fishy luckbox and it was starting to wind me up, not in an outwardly obvious way but in a way that made me deviate from a sound game plan. Or is that just a posh way of describing tilt, however subtle?!

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

[gatso]

Welcome to blonde

I remember this hand, I was sat at the table in seat 7 or 8. Really enjoyed playing this table, especially when Chippie sat down.

The table is loose, an all out limp-fest. Players have come and gone, all of them calling stations who have donked off their cash to someone else. I am still at the table despite being down because I know that the opportunity is there to make hay.

Agreed, I think it was me they kept donking chips to.

I have sat down with £75, not enough I know, but it is all I have after the missus has fleeced me this morning for the shopping... At one stage I am down to about £35.
 

Nothing really  wrong with the £75, min is £40, max £100 on this table. The problem is not having the money to put down when you drop to £35

UTG from Leicester checks. I need to find out where I stand, aware that I can trade on my tight image. I try to take the pot down immediately and raise  £15. Danger man and A N Other both fold, but matey doesn’t hesitate much and re-raises me to £30 - the minimum allowed.
My initial reaction is surprise. I think why such a small re-raise? I think he might be trying to push me off the pot because he thinks I am a folder. I think that my nines might still be good and that the call relative to the pot is a value proposition. 
I call, albeit reluctantly. I genuinely can’t put him on a hand. I wonder if he has Q,10 but can’t imagine him, even him, calling a raise and two calls with that. Likewise a random hand containing a 10. I figure I must have at least a 50% chance of still being ahead.

What makes you think he wouldn’t come in with QT or indeed xT? He’s already limped, now has to call £4 into a £16 pot. You’d been at the table long enough to realise that he’s calling here with any 2 cards.
Once he’s check-raised you, you have to put it down, while he’d  playing very loose pre-flop he was not throwing chips in post flop when he’d missed.

I also let the guy get to me because I could see that he was a fishy luckbox and it was starting to wind me up, not in an outwardly obvious way but in a way that made me deviate from a sound game plan. Or is that just a posh way of describing tilt, however subtle?!

This line probably sums up your biggest problem in this hand, your read on the player was so far off. He’s not a lucky fishbox, he’s actually a very good player who created the perfect table image to get you to pay him off.

[Pyso]

Hi gatso

Thanks for the welcome,

It's already proving a lot of fun reading the responses, and of course they're all accurate and although it hurts to admit it, it's very useful to me in terms of being able to learn from the situation.

I wonder why my read of him was so far off? Yes, he was only throwing the chips in when he had something - that is true. So the problem here is me thinking he was a luckbox because he was hitting, rather than realising what else was he supposed to do if he was hitting the flops all the time?

I came to that assumption, not about him personally, he seemed personable enough, rather his apparent valuing of pre-flop holdings which, once I'd seen them at showdown, seemed a bit loose to me. I also decided after a few of his comments about having favourite hands and his apparent wish to always limp in under the gun that this meant he was fishing for cards more than anything else.

I will bow to your superior knowledge as you probably know the guy.

If he has got me to think this about him in just a few hours play with him, and it is the opposite of what he is like, then fair play to him, but I maintain if he keeps playing like that pre-flop he is going to be a losing player in the long run. I don't really care whether he is or not, but I could only go on what I saw in that short time.

So if you are right about him gatso, then maybe I need to re-calibrate my radar!

Cheers for the input.

Come and say hi next time at DTD

Pyso

 

[AlexMartin]

hi, welcome to blonde. What totalise said. also raise more preflop in a live game.

[cooker3]

Normally my biggest issue with people posting hh on any forum is they don't provide enough info. I doubt thats something I will ever say of you!

Also lol @ this guy being a good player. He limps utg with T3 then calls a raise from someone with 65 big blinds and then check min raises flop. Play of an master

[Pyso]

Poker is all about the detail I reckon!

Thanks for the input cooker3 and Alex

I agree with you Alex about raising more in a £0.50/1 game - these tables seem to be populated by people with a calling reflex and you need to put real pound notes in front of their eyes to get them to wake up!!

Get them to think, "Hang on, I might be giving my money away here if I call!!!" LOL

I like your 'master player' analysis cooker3, I'm with you on that to an extent, until I'm proved otherwise by my new friend from Leicester. As is the way with these things, I'm sure I will sit down with him in the future..

[Benny Brox]

hi, welcome to blonde. What totalise said. also raise more preflop in a live game.

Is raising 5x under the gun not quite a big bet already being first into the pot? What would you make it pre-flop?

[gatso]

Also lol @ this guy being a good player. He limps utg with T3 then calls a raise from someone with 65 big blinds and then check min raises flop. Play of an master

my claim that he's a good player is not based on this hand, it's based on the fact that he's a good player.

this particular hand was played this way because a) he was playing way under the level he's bankrolled for, having a laugh with a wide range of starting hands (but playing solid poker post flop) b) expanding his range even further to include T3 UTG as sat opposite him was his good mate and in their homegame (not in all of Leicester apparently) T3 is classed as the nuts.

it's things like this that you can't account for in poker