One for the rule book..............

[M3boy]

Situation is there is a flop/trun/river with action on the flop and turn. Heads up

On the river, guy checks, 2nd guy bets 1200, leaving 5100 behind.

1st guy asks "how much do you have left?".

He then picks up 6300 chips (ie the total of guy one) and throws them over the line. AT THE SAME TIME - he says "call". - You cannot tell weather the chips hit the felt first or weather his spoken word of "call" is first.

So, is it a call? or does it go as a raise?

[Hairydude]

I think the spoken word is more binding so I give him his 5100 hundred back and take it as just a call-if he wanted to raise then its his own fault-he said call so doesnt matter if chips hit felt 1st

[M3boy]

I think the spoken word is more binding so I give him his 5100 hundred back and take it as just a call-if he wanted to raise then its his own fault-he said call so doesnt matter if chips hit felt 1st

U think?

If the chips hit the felt first, then the bet is a raise no matter what he says afterwards. The raise has taken place.

The tricky part here is you have no way of knowing which event happened first.

[AndrewT]

Which is more likely:

a) player intends to put the other player all-in, goes to the trouble of picking up exactly the number of chips his opponent has, and throws them into the pot, however, instead of 'all-in' he mistakenly says 'call'.

a) player intends to call, but mistakenly asks his opponent how much he has left, mistakenly counts out and picks up exactly that amount of chips and mistakenly places all these chips in the pot.

The intention is clear - he wants to raise, the raise should stand.

Why common sense needs to be so recklessly abandoned with poker rulings is a great puzzle.

[The_duke]

I think his intent was clearly to raise and he possibly got confused with his words.

However had he thrown a large denomination chip in without any words would that be a call . Does it make a difference that he picked more than one chip in order to bet and then threw them in.. I don't know...

[gatso]

However had he thrown a large denomination chip in without any words would that be a call .

yes, 100% that would be a call

as for the problem in the OP I believe that the verbal declaration stands.
In a situation where I'm betting and I throw in a handfull of chips while at the same time declaring the amount, if the declaration and the actuall amount put in differ I've always seen it ruled that the verbal declaraition goes. shouldn't be any different here

[Jon MW]

I agree that this is a situation where common sense should over ride any strict interpretation and it should be seen as a raise.

I think he's probably angle shooting and ready to say:

- no I meant to say raise, or
- but I said call

at a moments notice depending on what the other players response is.

But, if it was just a mistake then the fact that it was more than one chip indicates he meant to raise and if it was an attempt at  angle shooting then it commits him to one course of action which he can't be allowed to back down from.

[Jon MW]

...
However had he thrown a large denomination chip in without any words would that be a call . Does it make a difference that he picked more than one chip in order to bet and then threw them in.. I don't know...
...

That would be more ambiguous, so you couldn't rely on a 'common sense' approach, therefore a strict interpretation would be required - ie a call.

[booder]

Situation is there is a flop/trun/river with action on the flop and turn. Heads up

On the river, guy checks, 2nd guy bets 1200, leaving 5100 behind.

1st guy asks "how much do you have left?".

He then picks up 6300 chips (ie the total of guy one) and throws them over the line. AT THE SAME TIME - he says "call". - You cannot tell weather the chips hit the felt first or weather his spoken word of "call" is first.

So, is it a call? or does it go as a raise?

its a raise

[M3boy]

Certainly an interesting one.

Personally I think it is a raise.

However, the TD at the time ruled it as a call.

Just wondered if there is infact a correct answer.

Yet another example why we need standardised set of rules.

Saying you need to apply "commen sense" just causes problems as some people's common sense will be different from others

[Jon MW]

...
Saying you need to apply "commen sense" just causes problems as some people's common sense will be different from others

The problem with not applying common sense is that sometimes the strict interpretation of the rules can lead to nonsense judgments.

If it's the TD's common sense that is being relied on, and the TD's ruling is law - then there's no problem. It's exactly the same as any game or sport where an interpretation of a rule is required from a referee/arbiter.

[Hairydude]

I agree a standardised rulebook should be made but I still think a verbal comment should be more binding- its similar to when a player holds up say 5x 1k chips and drops them over the line one by one but gets told its a string bet and must take the other 4k back

[M3boy]

Why?

Give me an example whereby strict following of rules in poker could lead to what you are talking about.

I believe every situation in poker can be dealt with strictly by a set of rules.

Then, if a situation occurs, like in my OP which is not dealt with by the rules, then the rules can be ammended accordingly.

With strict rules, everyone should know where they stand.

In my OP, it would be easy to have a rule to deal with this situation - something along the lines of if a player makes a bet but announces a different amount AT THE SAME TIME, then it is the chips that stand and not the verbal declaration.

Simple.

[doubleup]

The problem here is that you haven't been able to determine what happened first.  No rulebook can cover a situation like that. 

Despite his intention, if he said call and it isn't clear whether he put the chips in before this, the call should stand.  Inexperienced players sometimes say "I call and raise..." and this is usually ruled as a call.   

[boldie]

this is clearly a raise for me. He picks up 6300 chips and puts them over the line. he knows the bet is 1100. The intention is to raise and the raise must stand. If the guy then says "I said call" if he gets called and beaten by his oppo... he gets banned from the tourney.

Done.