Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[Colchester Kev]

What are your current musical tastes Red? Apart from Mylene Klass?

I cannot get over the fact that anyone could believe Toms interest in Mylene Klass is musical   

[RED-DOG]

What are your current musical tastes Red? Apart from Mylene Klass?

I cannot get over the fact that anyone could believe Toms interest in Mylene Klass is musical   

Philistine!

[RED-DOG]

Continued from

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=30601.msg935985#msg935985



Dirty. Leave rubbish behind.


Gypsies are dirty, and they do leave rubbish behind. So the short answer is "Guilty as charged".

It's not as simple as that though. (You knew it wouldn't be, didn't you?)

Cleanliness is very important to Gypsies, and there is a strict code of what is and is not acceptable. Anything that does not comply with this code is considered Chickli or Mokadi.

Chickli is a simple word, it translates as "Unclean" "Dirty" or "Filthy" Mokadi on the other hand, is much more complex. It doesn't have a direct translation, in fact now that I come to try, it's really difficult to tell you what it does mean. It's a combination of all the words I've already used, "Unclean" "Dirty" "Filthy" etc, mixed with a concept of cleanliness. Imagine there is a standard, a benchmark for good practice where hygiene is concerned. Mockadi would be something that falls below that standard.

Boy! This is hard to explain in text. Let me give you an example of something that would be considered Mokadi


The kitchen sink, or the washing up bowl, is used for washing crockery, cooking and eating utensils. That's it. Period.

You can't wash you're hands or face in it, you can't clean your teeth or shave in it, and you can't be sick in it, even in an emergency. If someone did, it would be mokadi and you would have to replace the washing up bowl. In years gone by, you would have even had to replace the kitchen sink.

As time goes on, some of the more extreme mokadi laws are relaxing a little, and nowadays, if you have an enlightened wife, you might just get away with scrubbing the sink with caustic soda and then washing it out with several gallons of bleach, but in my youth, I've seen no end of very expensive Royal Worcester, Evesham, Minton, and Crown Derby crockery smashed on the spot because a dog licked it, or sniffed too close.

The only things allowed on a kitchen work surface are things specifically designed for use in the preparation and consumption of food. You can't put a shopping bag, an item of clothing, or anything else on there, otherwise, it would be mokadi

Similar mokadi laws govern things like personal hygiene, the washing and storing of underwear and bedding, the language used in the presence of girls or women, moral values, decency, modesty and so on.

Capiche?  No. I thought not. Nevermind.


Now (mokadi laws notwithstanding), there are some aspects of cleanliness that are important to others, but not so important to us, and I believe that it is from these differences (along with hundreds of years of anti Gypsy propaganda) that the concept of "Dirty Gypsy" arose.

As they go about their daily business, Gypsies don't worry too much about trying to keep their clothes, or their hands and faces clean.

Until very recently, Gypsies spent the vast majority of their waking lives outdoors. Be they working, tending livestock, hunting, making things to sell, or relaxing by the campfire, they did it outdoors. Now remember, this is not on a deck chair in the garden outdoors, or walking along a city street outdoors. This is living outdoors, in a field, or on a grass verge by the roadside.

You're hands and face get dirty, and your clothes get dirty. It's a natural state of affairs, you're not embarrassed or self conscious about it. Of course, you remove your dirty clothes and wash thouroughly before you go to bed, but no one ever sees you then.

Modern day Gypsies are a little different, but only a little. They have big (By comparison) well appointed caravans and they don't have to spend so much time outside. As a consequence they look a bit tidier, but they still spend a lot of their time outdoors and they still don't mind looking scruffy. In fact I often see Gypsy men dressed in expensive suits  (perhaps at a wedding or something) crawl under a lorry that they are interested in buying, or walk through mud a foot deep to look at some horses with never a thought for their apparel. What's more, no one at the function would bat an eyelid when they walked in all disheveled.

The way we bring our children up means that  they are going to get dirty. We encourage them to try everything. We let them learn as many of life's lessons as they can while they are young. If they get a few knocks along the way, all the better.

Our kids are expected to learn quickly and accept responsibility early. you can't do that while worrying if your mam is going to scold you for getting your trousers dirty.

I seem to have rambled on a bit here. I've only addressed half the issue and I don't think I've done that very well.  I suppose what I'm trying to say is just because Gypsies often look dirty, it doesn't mean that they are dirty.

Well they are, but not where it matters.

OK. I've done my best with that. Let's move on to "Leaving rubbish behind"

[david3103]

p174 and still no gazebo pic...

but had there been I might not have reached the tale of Rantor during my read today. I'm glad i did. Fine tale, marvellously well told.

Thank you. You're making a nice lad.

I believe you must be mistaking me for someone else...

[david3103]

It's quite frustrating reading all the interactive posts on topics you wished you'd read at the time.

All that prog-rock stuff brought back so many memories - Yes were one of the bands that provided a soundtrack to my youth, along with ELP and King Crimson.

What are your current musical tastes Red? Apart from Mylene Klass?

Wow! that's a big question, I'll have to think on it a while. That reminds me, 77Dave asked a big question too and I haven't answered that yet.

In the meanwhile, There are a few bits and bobs here that you might not have seen.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=4133.msg94535#msg94535

oh man oh man my sides hurt

why is it that the thought of a brick in the nuts makes us laugh so much?

sorry
so sorry

but the line "I put my hands over my head, which wasn’t much help because the brick landed squarely in my crotch" made me laugh more than I really should have.

My mood was good at that point since it came just as my  ran into a  flop and two opponents with the perfect  and 
a $53 pot at 10c/20c is a good way to start the day

[sovietsong]

Continued from

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=30601.msg935985#msg935985



Dirty. Leave rubbish behind.


Gypsies are dirty, and they do leave rubbish behind. So the short answer is "Guilty as charged".

It's not as simple as that though. (You knew it wouldn't be, didn't you?)

Cleanliness is very important to Gypsies, and there is a strict code of what is and is not acceptable. Anything that does not comply with this code is considered Chickli or Mokadi.

Chickli is a simple word, it translates as "Unclean" "Dirty" or "Filthy" Mokadi on the other hand, is much more complex. It doesn't have a direct translation, in fact now that I come to try, it's really difficult to tell you what it does mean. It's a combination of all the words I've already used, "Unclean" "Dirty" "Filthy" etc, mixed with a concept of cleanliness. Imagine there is a standard, a benchmark for good practice where hygiene is concerned. Mockadi would be something that falls below that standard.

Boy! This is hard to explain in text. Let me give you an example of something that would be considered Mokadi


The kitchen sink, or the washing up bowl, is used for washing crockery, cooking and eating utensils. That's it. Period.

You can't wash you're hands or face in it, you can't clean your teeth or shave in it, and you can't be sick in it, even in an emergency. If someone did, it would be mokadi and you would have to replace the washing up bowl. In years gone by, you would have even had to replace the kitchen sink.

As time goes on, some of the more extreme mokadi laws are relaxing a little, and nowadays, if you have an enlightened wife, you might just get away with scrubbing the sink with caustic soda and then washing it out with several gallons of bleach, but in my youth, I've seen no end of very expensive Royal Worcester, Evesham, Minton, and Crown Derby crockery smashed on the spot because a dog licked it, or sniffed too close.

The only things allowed on a kitchen work surface are things specifically designed for use in the preparation and consumption of food. You can't put a shopping bag, an item of clothing, or anything else on there, otherwise, it would be mokadi

Similar mokadi laws govern things like personal hygiene, the washing and storing of underwear and bedding, the language used in the presence of girls or women, moral values, decency, modesty and so on.

Capiche?  No. I thought not. Nevermind.


Now (mokadi laws notwithstanding), there are some aspects of cleanliness that are important to others, but not so important to us, and I believe that it is from these differences (along with hundreds of years of anti Gypsy propaganda) that the concept of "Dirty Gypsy" arose.

As they go about their daily business, Gypsies don't worry too much about trying to keep their clothes, or their hands and faces clean.

Until very recently, Gypsies spent the vast majority of their waking lives outdoors. Be they working, tending livestock, hunting, making things to sell, or relaxing by the campfire, they did it outdoors. Now remember, this is not on a deck chair in the garden outdoors, or walking along a city street outdoors. This is living outdoors, in a field, or on a grass verge by the roadside.

You're hands and face get dirty, and your clothes get dirty. It's a natural state of affairs, you're not embarrassed or self conscious about it. Of course, you remove your dirty clothes and wash thouroughly before you go to bed, but no one ever sees you then.

Modern day Gypsies are a little different, but only a little. They have big (By comparison) well appointed caravans and they don't have to spend so much time outside. As a consequence they look a bit tidier, but they still spend a lot of their time outdoors and they still don't mind looking scruffy. In fact I often see Gypsy men dressed in expensive suits  (perhaps at a wedding or something) crawl under a lorry that they are interested in buying, or walk through mud a foot deep to look at some horses with never a thought for their apparel. What's more, no one at the function would bat an eyelid when they walked in all disheveled.

The way we bring our children up means that  they are going to get dirty. We encourage them to try everything. We let them learn as many of life's lessons as they can while they are young. If they get a few knocks along the way, all the better.

Our kids are expected to learn quickly and accept responsibility early. you can't do that while worrying if your mam is going to scold you for getting your trousers dirty.

I seem to have rambled on a bit here. I've only addressed half the issue and I don't think I've done that very well.  I suppose what I'm trying to say is just because Gypsies often look dirty, it doesn't mean that they are dirty.

Well they are, but not where it matters.

OK. I've done my best with that. Let's move on to "Leaving rubbish behind"

Great stuff as usual Red thank you.

[Kev B]

Continued from

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=30601.msg935985#msg935985



Dirty. Leave rubbish behind.


Gypsies are dirty, and they do leave rubbish behind. So the short answer is "Guilty as charged".

It's not as simple as that though. (You knew it wouldn't be, didn't you?)

Cleanliness is very important to Gypsies, and there is a strict code of what is and is not acceptable. Anything that does not comply with this code is considered Chickli or Mokadi.

Chickli is a simple word, it translates as "Unclean" "Dirty" or "Filthy" Mokadi on the other hand, is much more complex. It doesn't have a direct translation, in fact now that I come to try, it's really difficult to tell you what it does mean. It's a combination of all the words I've already used, "Unclean" "Dirty" "Filthy" etc, mixed with a concept of cleanliness. Imagine there is a standard, a benchmark for good practice where hygiene is concerned. Mockadi would be something that falls below that standard.

Boy! This is hard to explain in text. Let me give you an example of something that would be considered Mokadi


The kitchen sink, or the washing up bowl, is used for washing crockery, cooking and eating utensils. That's it. Period.

You can't wash you're hands or face in it, you can't clean your teeth or shave in it, and you can't be sick in it, even in an emergency. If someone did, it would be mokadi and you would have to replace the washing up bowl. In years gone by, you would have even had to replace the kitchen sink.

As time goes on, some of the more extreme mokadi laws are relaxing a little, and nowadays, if you have an enlightened wife, you might just get away with scrubbing the sink with caustic soda and then washing it out with several gallons of bleach, but in my youth, I've seen no end of very expensive Royal Worcester, Evesham, Minton, and Crown Derby crockery smashed on the spot because a dog licked it, or sniffed too close.

The only things allowed on a kitchen work surface are things specifically designed for use in the preparation and consumption of food. You can't put a shopping bag, an item of clothing, or anything else on there, otherwise, it would be mokadi

Similar mokadi laws govern things like personal hygiene, the washing and storing of underwear and bedding, the language used in the presence of girls or women, moral values, decency, modesty and so on.

Capiche?  No. I thought not. Nevermind.


Now (mokadi laws notwithstanding), there are some aspects of cleanliness that are important to others, but not so important to us, and I believe that it is from these differences (along with hundreds of years of anti Gypsy propaganda) that the concept of "Dirty Gypsy" arose.

As they go about their daily business, Gypsies don't worry too much about trying to keep their clothes, or their hands and faces clean.

Until very recently, Gypsies spent the vast majority of their waking lives outdoors. Be they working, tending livestock, hunting, making things to sell, or relaxing by the campfire, they did it outdoors. Now remember, this is not on a deck chair in the garden outdoors, or walking along a city street outdoors. This is living outdoors, in a field, or on a grass verge by the roadside.

You're hands and face get dirty, and your clothes get dirty. It's a natural state of affairs, you're not embarrassed or self conscious about it. Of course, you remove your dirty clothes and wash thouroughly before you go to bed, but no one ever sees you then.

Modern day Gypsies are a little different, but only a little. They have big (By comparison) well appointed caravans and they don't have to spend so much time outside. As a consequence they look a bit tidier, but they still spend a lot of their time outdoors and they still don't mind looking scruffy. In fact I often see Gypsy men dressed in expensive suits  (perhaps at a wedding or something) crawl under a lorry that they are interested in buying, or walk through mud a foot deep to look at some horses with never a thought for their apparel. What's more, no one at the function would bat an eyelid when they walked in all disheveled.

The way we bring our children up means that  they are going to get dirty. We encourage them to try everything. We let them learn as many of life's lessons as they can while they are young. If they get a few knocks along the way, all the better.

Our kids are expected to learn quickly and accept responsibility early. you can't do that while worrying if your mam is going to scold you for getting your trousers dirty.

I seem to have rambled on a bit here. I've only addressed half the issue and I don't think I've done that very well.  I suppose what I'm trying to say is just because Gypsies often look dirty, it doesn't mean that they are dirty.

Well they are, but not where it matters.

OK. I've done my best with that. Let's move on to "Leaving rubbish behind"

A brilliant insight to Gypsy life and thinking.

[gatso]

Tom, do Gypsies tend to pass names down through the generations?

my mum's best friend is married to a gypsy called John, they have a son called John who last week had a son called John.

just wondering if that's a tradition or if it's just that one family

[Karabiner]

Tom that's really interesting stuff regarding mokadi, it seems as though it works almost in exactly the same way as kosher, or kashrut does for the Jews who I would imagine were probably nomadic at the time these rules were made.

Kashrut is actually a "rule-book" of what is and is not allowed and can be to do with anything from food to love-making.

[RED-DOG]

Tom that's really interesting stuff regarding mokadi, it seems as though it works almost in exactly the same way as kosher, or kashrut does for the Jews who I would imagine were probably nomadic at the time these rules were made.

Kashrut is actually a "rule-book" of what is and is not allowed and can be to do with anything from food to love-making.

Yes Ralph. I was so tempted to refer to kosher when trying to explain mokadi. I decided not to because don't understand kosher properly and I didn't want to cause offence.


I'm convinced that these rules are originate because of the way nomads live. Think about it, lots of people all eating and sleeping in the same very small space. Ideal conditions for disease to flourish unless particular care is paid to hygiene.

[RED-DOG]

Tom, do Gypsies tend to pass names down through the generations?

my mum's best friend is married to a gypsy called John, they have a son called John who last week had a son called John.

just wondering if that's a tradition or if it's just that one family

It's a tradition gat, usually the eldest son or daughter is called after a parent or grandparent.

My Great grandad was called Tom, my dad is called Tom, I'm Tom, and my son was called Tom.

Mrs Red Is called Muzelley, so is our daughter and our grandaughter.

[AndrewT]

Tom that's really interesting stuff regarding mokadi, it seems as though it works almost in exactly the same way as kosher, or kashrut does for the Jews who I would imagine were probably nomadic at the time these rules were made.

Kashrut is actually a "rule-book" of what is and is not allowed and can be to do with anything from food to love-making.

Yes Ralph. I was so tempted to refer to kosher when trying to explain mokadi. I decided not to because don't understand kosher properly and I didn't want to cause offence.


I'm convinced that these rules are originate because of the way nomads live. Think about it, lots of people all eating and sleeping in the same very small space. Ideal conditions for disease to flourish unless particular care is paid to hygiene.

If there's no malice behind a statement then I don't see why causing offence should be a concern. If everyone thought others could take offence at something they said, no one would ever say anything.

When I read about mokadi, kosher was the first thing I thought of as well, and an awful lot of that is simply good hygiene rules - I'd imagine the same thing applies to mokadi. Given the outdoors life of a Gypsy, particularly if it means a lot of close proximity to animals, then keeping the kitchen sink area clean for food preparation is only sensible.

[gatso]

blimey, that sounds really confusing but then I guess you use nicknames a lot more (you still haven't told us yours have you?) so that'll make it easier

Little John (as I've always known him, I guess he'll be middle John now) isn't the oldest but I guess his mum, not being a Gypsy, didn't want to have her daughter named after her

[RED-DOG]

Tom that's really interesting stuff regarding mokadi, it seems as though it works almost in exactly the same way as kosher, or kashrut does for the Jews who I would imagine were probably nomadic at the time these rules were made.

Kashrut is actually a "rule-book" of what is and is not allowed and can be to do with anything from food to love-making.

Yes Ralph. I was so tempted to refer to kosher when trying to explain mokadi. I decided not to because don't understand kosher properly and I didn't want to cause offence.


I'm convinced that these rules are originate because of the way nomads live. Think about it, lots of people all eating and sleeping in the same very small space. Ideal conditions for disease to flourish unless particular care is paid to hygiene.

If there's no malice behind a statement then I don't see why causing offence should be a concern. If everyone thought others could take offence at something they said, no one would ever say anything.

When I read about mokadi, kosher was the first thing I thought of as well, and an awful lot of that is simply good hygiene rules - I'd imagine the same thing applies to mokadi. Given the outdoors life of a Gypsy, particularly if it means a lot of close proximity to animals, then keeping the kitchen sink area clean for food preparation is only sensible.

Perhaps "Cause offence" was the wrong choice of words Andrew. I suppose what I meant was that I didn't want to compare mokadi to kosher because it assumes a knowledge of kosher that I don't possess.

Mind you, thinking about it, I could have said "I would imagine that mokadi is something similar to kosher"

[AndrewT]

Tom that's really interesting stuff regarding mokadi, it seems as though it works almost in exactly the same way as kosher, or kashrut does for the Jews who I would imagine were probably nomadic at the time these rules were made.

Kashrut is actually a "rule-book" of what is and is not allowed and can be to do with anything from food to love-making.

Yes Ralph. I was so tempted to refer to kosher when trying to explain mokadi. I decided not to because don't understand kosher properly and I didn't want to cause offence.


I'm convinced that these rules are originate because of the way nomads live. Think about it, lots of people all eating and sleeping in the same very small space. Ideal conditions for disease to flourish unless particular care is paid to hygiene.

If there's no malice behind a statement then I don't see why causing offence should be a concern. If everyone thought others could take offence at something they said, no one would ever say anything.

When I read about mokadi, kosher was the first thing I thought of as well, and an awful lot of that is simply good hygiene rules - I'd imagine the same thing applies to mokadi. Given the outdoors life of a Gypsy, particularly if it means a lot of close proximity to animals, then keeping the kitchen sink area clean for food preparation is only sensible.

Perhaps "Cause offence" was the wrong choice of words Andrew. I suppose what I meant was that I didn't want to compare mokadi to kosher because it assumes a knowledge of kosher that I don't possess.

Mind you, thinking about it, I could have said "I would imagine that mokadi is something similar to kosher"

It's no big thing - I just have a bee in my bonnet about 'causing offence' at the moment. It seems to be too often used by people who have no actual counter-argument to something so just use it to shut down debate about something. But that doesn't apply here and isn't for this thread.

Given what I know of Gypsy tradition (which is all from this thread) I probably already know the answer to this, but I assume all knowledge of mokadi is passed on through the oral tradition - there's no 'Big Book of Gypsy Mokadi' to consult?