Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[hans47]

Red I was once told that you could not hand feed a finch but I eventually got my finch to eat off my hand is it rare for them to do that or was someone telling me porkies and I love to have birds think it is a man thing would love to fly!

It's not uncommon. I used to put goldfinch eggs under canaries and when they fledged they would feed from your hand.

Cock bullfinches, even those caught from the wild become so tame that if you can't get rid of them.

I have caught a selection during the winter (it's easier then) then when I've decided which ones to keep, the ones I released kept flying back into the aviary every time I opened the door.

well that ruins my king of bird keeping title that does thought i was special there! Darn have to come up with another spectacular feat to work on!
I have a question do stories and songs get past down from generation to generation by the gypsies? How do they keep track of the old tales?

[RED-DOG]

Red I was once told that you could not hand feed a finch but I eventually got my finch to eat off my hand is it rare for them to do that or was someone telling me porkies and I love to have birds think it is a man thing would love to fly!

It's not uncommon. I used to put goldfinch eggs under canaries and when they fledged they would feed from your hand.

Cock bullfinches, even those caught from the wild become so tame that if you can't get rid of them.

I have caught a selection during the winter (it's easier then) then when I've decided which ones to keep, the ones I released kept flying back into the aviary every time I opened the door.

well that ruins my king of bird keeping title that does thought i was special there! Darn have to come up with another spectacular feat to work on!
I have a question do stories and songs get past down from generation to generation by the gypsies? How do they keep track of the old tales?

Stories and history passed downfrom one generation to the next during a lifetime of sitting around a campfire talking.

[MANTIS01]

Great thread.

A question that interests me about gypsy society Tom.

Naturally enough there is a criminal element within gypsy communities. I understand that like in most communities this would be a minority element. But I often find that when crime is born out of an ethnic minority it creates problems for the honest majority of that society as a whole. You can see how over recent years muslims and terrorism have become linked, so that because of a few nutters, millions of muslims are being viewed in a certain way (this is nuts I know but seems to be the way of the world). I see that muslim leaders have often been criticised for not being more vocal about denouncing these acts of terror and it got me thinking.

Is there a social hierarchy within a gypsy community where there are elders/leaders who attend to matters of justice? If I were an honest chap like yourself and I lived alongside a bad apple who brought problems to the group it would hack me off quick time. I mean what do you do about it? The sort of discrimination you have experienced yourself is not helped by the actions of this minority who give gypsies a bad name. Do you turn to the police or are there internal ways to deal with this problem? If a neighbour is arrested and imprisoned are they welcomed back into the group and is this a democratic decision?

[RED-DOG]

Great question. Will answer when I'm awake.

[RED-DOG]

Currently playing cash while asleep....

[RED-DOG]

Great thread.

A question that interests me about gypsy society Tom.

Naturally enough there is a criminal element within gypsy communities. I understand that like in most communities this would be a minority element. But I often find that when crime is born out of an ethnic minority it creates problems for the honest majority of that society as a whole. You can see how over recent years muslims and terrorism have become linked, so that because of a few nutters, millions of muslims are being viewed in a certain way (this is nuts I know but seems to be the way of the world). I see that muslim leaders have often been criticised for not being more vocal about denouncing these acts of terror and it got me thinking.

Is there a social hierarchy within a gypsy community where there are elders/leaders who attend to matters of justice? If I were an honest chap like yourself and I lived alongside a bad apple who brought problems to the group it would hack me off quick time. I mean what do you do about it? The sort of discrimination you have experienced yourself is not helped by the actions of this minority who give gypsies a bad name. Do you turn to the police or are there internal ways to deal with this problem? If a neighbour is arrested and imprisoned are they welcomed back into the group and is this a democratic decision?

There is no social hierarchy in Gypsy society. The fabled Gypsy kings and queens, and the oft-quoted Gypsy leaders do not exist

The way things work are something I was born into. For me it is just the way things are. It’s hard to put it into words. I want to make a good job of explaining it, so if it still seems unclear afterwards, let me know and I will have another go.

To have the respect of ones peers is very important in Gypsy society. This respect does not have to be initially earned; it is bestowed upon you as a birthright. It is assumed and expected that you will behave in a manner worthy of that respect.

For the most part, but not exclusively, you are judged on your behaviour within Gypsy society. There is a strict code of conduct. It isn’t written down, and it isn’t even talked about or taught in the proper sense of the word, but everyone knows where the lines are drawn, and to cross them would be to lose the respect that is your passport to acceptance.

In our society, a man is expected to put the needs of his family before everything else. It is his responsibility to provide for them and protect them. Like swans, Gypsies tend to mate for life; the divorce rate is almost zero. We tend to stick together through thick and thin, it can be hard at times, but it usually works out ok in the end.

In our business dealings with each other, there are no bills of sale, no receipts, no written contracts. Although it’s perfectly acceptable, even expected for one man to try to get the better of another in a deal, his word must be his bond. If you ask a specific question, i.e. “What’s that horse like in traffic?” or “is that car showing the proper mileage?” you would expect a truthful answer. Once a deal is struck it is sealed by a handshake or a slapping of palms and it is honoured by both parties come what may.

Physical prowess is not important, but courage is. If you are challenged to fight, there is absolutely no shame in losing, only in not accepting.

Matters of justice.

Yes, of course there is a criminal element among Gypsies, just as there is in all other communities, but also like other communities, they are the minority.

This is difficult to explain, but what a man does regarding the general public, the non Gypsies (Gorgers) and what he does within Gypsy society are two different things. You have to remember that almost everything a Gypsy did in generations past put him outside the law. From illegal camping, to collecting scrap without a waste-carrier’s licence (Which he couldn’t get because he had no fixed abode) to not sending the kids to school, to a hundred other things. He could not be judged because he was outside the gorger’s law.

What someone does on the “outside” is his business. Generations of having to make a living in a hostile world meant that we don’t get involved. The “One bad apple” theory, while being true, is wrong. The actions of one shouldn’t condemn the whole group. Why would I play policeman? Why should I have to be responsible for the actions of someone else to prevent my being tarred by the same brush? I can’t go around like a vigilante.

That being said, sex crimes, child abuse, wanton cruelty of any kind, be it towards animals or humans, violent crime, drug trafficking etc would result in the offender being either beaten up, ostracised, handed over to the police, or sometimes all three.

I used to attend local authority conferences, cultural awareness workshops and police training days etc to talk about the problems faced by Gypsies, and the lack of understanding (on all sides) between the councils, the police, the Gypsies and the settled community. When I did, I always tried to make them understand that I was only one person speaking on behalf of, and representing the views of a whole group of people.

Please bear that in mind.

[MANTIS01]

Very interesting insight Tom.

You talk about "gorger's law" and what people do on the "outside" and this raises an issue for me. Does this separation of attitude, seemingly self-imposed, not hinder intergration and acceptance, and account for the kind of "them and us" attitude that exists in the world?

Is stealing from a fellow gypsy considered a more serious offence than stealing from an outsider? Surely stealing is the same offence regardless of who the victim is? Why is being honest with fellow gypsies distinguished as different from just being honest?

I am thinking about the time you moved onto the field and some people in the village took exception. At the time of reading I cringed because for me people are people......but if gypsies live by their own law and would see the villagers as outsiders, then does it not make sense that you would feel like the outsider when trying to integrate?

I am not suggesting any one group is particularly to blame because people seem to naturally resent difference. But if a very clear difference is established from BOTH sides it must make the battle for acceptance that much harder. I would imagine that leaving a larger gypsy community and attempting this solo integration on the outside is a real challenge?

Thanks for the time you took to answer my question so thoroughly.

[RED-DOG]

Does this separation of attitude, seemingly self-imposed, not hinder intergration and acceptance


The problem is that integration soon becomes assimilation.



Is stealing from a fellow gypsy considered a more serious offence than stealing from an outsider? Surely stealing is the same offence regardless of who the victim is? Why is being honest with fellow gypsies distinguished as different from just being honest?


This is a tough one. Of course it is wrong to steal from anyone, but when it happens within a society who's way of life revolves around trusting each other, it makes it particularly difficult to accept crime against fellow Gypsies. These are very broad issues, with subtle nuances and many grey areas.

Basically, it has always been "Them and us" If that were not the case, we would be Gypsies in name only. Being different doesn't have to be a bad thing. All we have to do is respect and tolerate each other's way of life.


I would imagine that leaving a larger gypsy community and attempting this solo integration on the outside is a real challenge?



Not at all. Gypsies have never traditionally travelled in large groups, and have often managed to gain the trust of people local to their regular stopping places.

It is when large groups gather, or local authorities force them together on a big communal sites that the problems start.

[Dingdell]

Does this separation of attitude, seemingly self-imposed, not hinder intergration and acceptance


The problem is that integration soon becomes assimilation.



Is stealing from a fellow gypsy considered a more serious offence than stealing from an outsider? Surely stealing is the same offence regardless of who the victim is? Why is being honest with fellow gypsies distinguished as different from just being honest?


This is a tough one. Of course it is wrong to steal from anyone, but when it happens within a society who's way of life revolves around trusting each other, it makes it particularly difficult to accept crime against fellow Gypsies. These are very broad issues, with subtle nuances and many grey areas. Basically, it has always been "Them and us" If that were not the case, we would be Gypsies in name only. Being different doesn't have to be a bad thing. All we have to do is respect and tolerate each other's way of life.


I would imagine that leaving a larger gypsy community and attempting this solo integration on the outside is a real challenge?



Not at all. Gypsies have never traditionally travelled in large groups, and have often managed to gain the trust of people local to their regular stopping places.

It is when large groups gather, or local authorities force them together on a big communal sites that the problems start.

I think this is the same in most communities, when I was in the police  there was an area in Luton that was not the best. It had a mix of law abiding and wrong uns - like any community.  When someone from there did something against another member of the community it was always frowned upon more - a don't s**t on your doorstep approach.

It would be innacurate to suggest that this is an attitude just within the Gypsy community. It's pretty much community wide, with or without caravan.

[RED-DOG]

This week’s poker.

Started at the Broadway on Tuesday with the missing level, tilt you up, play like a Nelly £300. Early bath.

Next up was Thursday’s excellent 10,000 chip, all levels 45 min clock £500. I went deep, (5 off the money) but I lost a race with 99 v AQ and it was goodbye from me.

Friday I played the £50 super satellite for the main event. 2000 staring chips, 2 x 45 min re-buy period, then 25 min clock.

During the dying minutes of the re-buy period, someone made it 800 to go from early position (blinds 50/100) 3 people call.

By this stage I am up to 6k in chips and I have 8 10 of clubs. I fancy picking up a big pot if I his so I call and another player calls behind me. Then the big blind moves all in for 2900 more and everyone folds around to me, I have a dwell.

I look at the player still to act behind me and he has 1100 left, so I know he’s coming along for the ride. What should I do here?





Went to dtd tonight, only 34 runners when I sat down so a very nice overlay.

After an orbit or two, I paid 200 to enter a 3-way pot with the A 2 of hearts.

The flop came 10 3 4 two hearts. I’m first to speak so I check, big Anthony makes it 300 to go, and Matey Boy makes it 300 with 300 more. I decide to call for my flush/straight. BA  makes up the other 300.

The turn is a black 9. Big Anthony checks, Matey boy bets 1100, I call and miss on the river, he moves in and I pass.

Nothing remarkable about this story, except that when they fan out the cards to change dealers, we notice that the 8 of hearts is missing. That’s 5 of my outs up the Swannee.



With 8 minutes to go until the end of the second level, Rob (Night fly) announces that he is going to take the unprecedented step of stopping the tournament and adding another table to allow 7 late arriving alternates to play. There are rumblings of discontent and whispered suggestions that this has been done to recoup some of the overlay. I have to admit, that I was bit taken aback myself.

When the comp re started, Rob announced the guarantee would be upped to £7k to compensate for the inclusion of the latecomers. (2 would have got in anyway) Result! We keep our overlay; the latey’s get a game.


Within a few mins of the re-start, ep makes it 400 to go on my bb, everyone calls. I find AK and decide to push.

Everyone folds except the button, who calls with A J.

Flop K 3 7.

Turn Q

River 10 and it’s de ja vu all over again. Another early bath.

On the bright side, I’m hotter than a jalapeno pepper in the full ring $2/4 games on blonde, so mustn’t grumble.

[Shogun112]

its funny about the alternates rules...

In Vegas, in a comp I was in, when there were 9 alternates waiting, still quite close to the start. they opened a new table and put em all on that table, to me that meant higher payout pool..  But I guess with guaranteed payout, and much less than the number of people arriving, then yes the 34 who started would not want many more alternates joining after the start, to get value of course..  But on the other note, while DTD are guaranteeing a payout and they are falling short of the number of people required to make up that payout pool, then it is DTD who are making up the difference..

I played there Friday evening and there were more funds than the guaranteed..

I think, if the guaranteed payout is exceeded by the number of players regularly, then it will probably stay, but, if there are too many times that it falls below the number required, then DTD will not be able to afford it and in the future will more than likely reduce the guaranteed payout or drop it alltogether, both times reducing the DTD risk..!!

I personally don't want DTD to be losing because of the guaranteed payouts, so am happy that the extra table was allowed to happen, but I also think it was a bit much to expect them to increase the guaranteed payout because of the extra people who created an extra table..

[RED-DOG]

In anticipation of my forthcoming birthday, my mam (God bless her) sent me this picture. (circa 1969) It is in a lovely wooden frame and has the caption. "Look Who's 50"

[RED-DOG]

I told the story of Lou Lou during a lul in a live update about two years ago.


http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=1870.msg46174#msg46174

[boldie]

In anticipation of my forthcoming birthday, my mam (God bless her) sent me this picture. (circa 1969) It is in a lovely wooden frame and has the caption. "Look Who's 50"

wow the horse is 50?!?...Can't be you as you don't look a day over 35.

[RED-DOG]

About 15 years ago, I bought a mare called “Henry’s Mare”. I had known this mare since the day she was born, in fact I went to witness her birth.

Her dam, a mare called “Odd Socks” belonged to my brother-in-law Dick, and she was the prettiest black and white cob you ever clapped your eyes on. 13.2 hh in her shoes and marked like a map. Good conformation, impeccable pedigree, sweet nature, everything about her screamed quality. 

He mated her with a stallion called “The bent leg hoss” So named because of an accident he had as a foal. It left him lame and unable to work, but still able to mate (What a lucky break that was) and as it happened, he turned out to be the most wonderful stock-getter. I owned him briefly once, but that’s another story.

Odd Socks was due to foal somewhere around the end of March, and never was a birth more eagerly anticipated, but, like a watched pot, she took forever to come to the boil and we were well into April before she finally bagged up. Now that she had her milk, we knew the big event was only a matter of days away and we checked on her constantly. No simple task because she was turned out in about 50 acres, and no matter which end we came in, she was always at the other. Eventually, her teats waxed up and we knew that in all probability, her long awaited, much anticipated foal would be born before sun-up the following morning.

Horses usually like to give birth between 2am and 5am, so knowing that we were in for a long night, Dick and I repaired to our local for a game of crash, a large pie, and a small pint of beer. The talk amongst the men in the pub was all about the foal. “I hope it’s a filly for you” or “It’s bound to be black and white, the awd oss allus throws colour” and as always “How much will you take for it in the belly?”

We arrived at the field at about midnight, and we opened the gate and drove right on in. We knew roughly where she would be because earlier in the day, as is the way with horses; she had separated herself from the rest of the herd and wandered alone to the most remote spot. We drove slowly and stopped the car as soon as we could pick her out in the headlights; she was still on her feet, so nothing happening yet. Then she turned to face us, and we both gasped in surprise. There beside her, still wet, but as wick as a cricket, was her newborn foal.

We half walked, half ran towards her. Trying not to spook her, but eager to see. We needn’t have worried; Odd Socks whinnied to us softly as we approached. She was a new mother and she was as proud as punch of her baby, she wanted to show it off.

In order to get hold of it, we did the old trick, I stood close by the mare’s flank on one side while the foal hid on the other. Then Dick walked around to the side the foal was on and immediately it bolted straight into my arms. The mare whickered a little in concern and we spoke softly to reassure her. I lifted the foal’s tail… Yes! It was a filly. But that was the only good thing about it.

All babies are beautiful, but from a breeders point of view, this was probably the ugliest foal I had ever seen. Everything that was right with the mother was wrong with the foal. Its back was too long, its head was too big, it was badly marked, it had spindly legs with no sign of feather, and its ears were like those of a donkey. It was a dinosaur. I shot a sideways glance at Dick, and I could tell that he was thinking the same thing.

The older she got, the uglier she grew, and as soon as she was weaned, Dick sold her in the pub to a man called Henry, a gorger man who liked Gypsy horses but didn’t know much about them. No one would have guessed it, but a few years later, I was to become the new owner of “Henry’s Mare”.

I’ll tell you about it later, it’s a bit of a gambling story.