Seeing your neighbour's cards.

[LuckyLloyd]

In many games/sports the number 1 rule is that "The game shall be played in a sporting manner". I believe that if i were to go on and win the pot/tournament without saying something to the dealer or an official at the time of the incident, then the pot/tournament would be greatly devalued ie. the win would be worthless if it left me feeling like i was a cheat. I would let the official/dealer make the final decision, either way win or lose my morals are in tact.

In my opinion this is similar to snooker players calling fouls on them selves when they accidentally touch the cue ball with the tip of there cue before playing a shot. Maybe we should be playing poker with the same level of honesty/integrity?

I'm all for ethically correct bnehaviour at the table. However, the essence of poker is that it is unsporting. You play because you believe your opponent is weaker than you and you will win their money over the longhaul. If you feel it is truly a level playing field and you have no edge then you should find another game or drop down levels.

In the same way that you should never tap the tank by telling someone the best way to play a hand after they spew some money in your direction; you shouldn't tell an opponent they are unable to properly look at their cards. It's an information game. If they're stupid enough to give all the information away then I wouldn't be feeling bad about it.

[LuckyLloyd]

And I think that you should just call both raises assuming you have a 20BB stack.

Really?

In both cases i don't think the stacks are deep enough in either case to gather a big enough advantage by playing perfectly postflop.

It's not going to be hard to get the rest in though because we are so shallow. If the player is in anyway standard / bad he is going to continuation bet every flop anyway. And we have 100% information.

[Card_Shark]

I play hard and fair....but this is a dog eat dog game. Poker players excell when they feed on the weaknesses of other players. If you have a problem jumping all over somebody's failings then I really don't think you have the right mentality for the game. "Let's not raise the little old lady because she can't see all that well"...."Let's not hammer the shortstack because we feel sorry for him"

If a player is leaking information by exposing their cards then more fool them. They better learn to sharpen up a bit if they want to do well in the game. There isn't a wellfare system in poker so simply put the weak get crushed. Helping your opponents to play better against you during a tournament is quite ridiculous. In fact the whole table should stand up, join hands and sing Kum Ba Yah My Lord if we are going to go down this road.

Players used to expose their cards on purpose to try and help them make a decision.

If you had a solid tell on someone would you let them know? "Excuse me sir, every time you're strong you scratch your nose"....don't be ridiculous. The "spirit" of poker is not upheld if you help the weak!

You and i obviously view this situation very differently, i have no problem in capitalising on another players mistakes, which is after all an integral part of all successful poker players games. What i do have a problem with is the win at all cost attitude, i play the game for enjoyment, its a nice way to make some money but i dont ever want to win by cheating.

You maybe don't view this as cheating, where as i do and i would get no satisfaction or sence of achievement by winning in this manner.

[LuckyLloyd]

Also, I'm not sure that this falls under a technical definition of "cheating". It is obviously unethical for someone to purposely show you their cards; to mark cards; signal etc - i.e. team play or collusion of any sort.

But I do not believe there is a rule against you watching a player for tells and other information - and their inabillity to protect their hand. This particular scenario seems to be no different to a player being a huge tellbox and lacking all semblence of body control.

I mean, really - would you feel that you were cheating if you knew a rock solid physical or betting tell? Because it's the same thing.

[Sonic]

I mean, really - would you feel that you were cheating if you knew a rock solid physical or betting tell? Because it's the same thing.

It's actually a very different thing. There is no such thing as a tell which conveys with 100% certainty a players hand. For example, it might happen that right before the hand a friend informed the tellbox of his tell and he is now using it against you. It is obviously not possible to convey misinformation when showing cards, and this is a very important difference.

[Card_Shark]

Also, I'm not sure that this falls under a technical definition of "cheating". It is obviously unethical for someone to purposely show you their cards; to mark cards; signal etc - i.e. team play or collusion of any sort.

But I do not believe there is a rule against you watching a player for tells and other information - and their inabillity to protect their hand. This particular scenario seems to be no different to a player being a huge tellbox and lacking all semblence of body control.

I mean, really - would you feel that you were cheating if you knew a rock solid physical or betting tell? Because it's the same thing.

I don't know if a rule exists or not regarding looking at someone else's hole cards, however i would be very surprised if it didn't, i personally would never look in the direction of another persons cards if i were sat next to a player, whilst they were checking.

Spotting tells however is something completely different in my opinion, compared to blatently looking at someone else's cards.

[gatso]

a couple of the responses in this thread are truly lol funny. our opponent has made a mistake, not us so why do we now want to disadvantage ourselves. let's try another couple of examples.

-we're sat in the BB with 83o, it passes to the button who throws in a big chip meaning to raise but doesn't announce it so it goes as a call. which of the following actions do we take? a) check our option and take a flop hoping to hit or b) say that as the button obviously made a mistake we'll pass as that's what we would've done if his raise stood

-we see the river 3 handed and have the 2nd nuts. player a makes a bet which we fully intend to call, player b now mucks at which point player a turns his cards face up to reveal the nuts not realising we still have cards. do we a) thank our lucky stars and muck or b) call because that's what we were going to do and it wouldn't be fair to take advantage of our oppos mistake.

I'm assuming we all answer a) to both as we're not stupid. if our opponents make mistakes then we adapt to the new information, we don't make ourselves suffer because of them, it's not our mistake.

[Card_Shark]

a couple of the responses in this thread are truly lol funny. our opponent has made a mistake, not us so why do we now want to disadvantage ourselves. let's try another couple of examples.

-we're sat in the BB with 83o, it passes to the button who throws in a big chip meaning to raise but doesn't announce it so it goes as a call. which of the following actions do we take? a) check our option and take a flop hoping to hit or b) say that as the button obviously made a mistake we'll pass as that's what we would've done if his raise stood

-we see the river 3 handed and have the 2nd nuts. player a makes a bet which we fully intend to call, player b now mucks at which point player a turns his cards face up to reveal the nuts not realising we still have cards. do we a) thank our lucky stars and muck or b) call because that's what we were going to do and it wouldn't be fair to take advantage of our oppos mistake.

I'm assuming we all answer a) to both as we're not stupid. if our opponents make mistakes then we adapt to the new information, we don't make ourselves suffer because of them, it's not our mistake.

OK try looking at it like this:

You are sat at the opening table of a comp when you notice the player sat next to you repeatedly peering at your hole cards whenever you check them, he is doing so in a sneaky way trying to avoid detection by sitting/leaning very far back in his chair as well as anything else he can think of doing to get a sly look at your cards.

Do you:

(a) Let him carry on trying to get a peek at your cards.
(b) Bring it to the attention of the dealer/TD.
(c) Defend your cards even more hoping that he doesn't get a glimpse.

I like most i think, bring it to the attention of the dealer/TD after first employing option (c), or do you just let him keep trying to get a peek as he is only trying to get a fair advantage by seeing your hole cards? I think not.

[MANTIS01]

Yes, some interesting points on this subject. I have strong principles at the poker table and play fairly. Example: I have pushed a pot to the winning player on numerous occasions after it was initially pushed to me in error. If nobody spots the error I still push it to the winning player because I believe I would be cheating if I kept quiet. But let's make no bones about it, if another player makes a mistake e.g. exposes his cards, this doesn't make you a cheat. You look at a player for information and I have the right to look anywhere I choose for that information. A player's hands can be a big tell, as can time taken to look at cards and the way those cards are looked at....so looking in that area is to look for important information. This is your job. Your opponent's job is to withold information. If he can't do his job properly it doesn't mean you're a cheat. It means you have an edge. E.g. If you weren't bothering to look you wouldn't see anything. So I refuse to avert my eyes just in case he blunders. If by trying to acquire information my opponent gives me more than I bargained for then unlucky for him. I can't help that. But I am not cheating.

As much as I enjoy the game and play in the right spirit I am not there to nanny people through the tournament by wiping their nose every time they foul up. This is something they should know. If not it is something they should learn quickly. I will inform them if they ask after the game but not as a live opponent during the game.

[snoopy1239]

Are the ruthless players here just as ruthless when it comes to string betting?

[MANTIS01]

No opponent will see my hole cards no matter how hard they try and them trying to catch a glimpse would not offend me in the slightest. He is there to screw me very hard in the arse and I am there to do it harder, better, quicker and first.

[Card_Shark]

No opponent will see my hole cards no matter how hard they try and them trying to catch a glimpse would not offend me in the slightest. He is there to screw me very hard in the arse and I am there to do it harder, better, quicker and first.

So what do you do if your the snooker player as mentioned in my earlier post and it's the deciding frame of the world championship 100k 1st prize 50k second, do you call the foul on yourself like 99.9% of pro snooker players or do you cheat and take the win at all costs attitude?

[gatso]

Are the ruthless players here just as ruthless when it comes to string betting?

yes because once we start to let some string bets through we open the way for angle shooting which is the whole point of not allowing string bets in the first place

[gatso]

So what do you do if your the snooker player as mentioned in my earlier post and it's the deciding frame of the world championship 100k 1st prize 50k second, do you call the foul on yourself like 99.9% of pro snooker players or do you cheat and take the win at all costs attitude?

this is in no way relevant to this discussion.

this thread is talking about mistakes made by others and in the example we would in no way be breaking the rules.

the snooker question relates to a mistake you yourself have made and whether or not you would break the rules to get away with it

[GlasgowBandit]

Are the ruthless players here just as ruthless when it comes to string betting?

Yes.

Unless its a genuine newbie, then i give the benefit of the doubt.