QQ Pre-Flop Can You Pass?

[Royal Flush]

no point in making great reads if you dont trust the result and act on it

as i said hard to laydown queens but if you are reading him for AA KK QQ JJ or AK then its a stupid move

even if he has AK do you really want to be racing when you are in such a comanding postion against a player that can bring you back to average

take on the small stacks in the races and take on the big stacks when you have AA or KK and read them for QQ or AK

QQ against the quoted range is a coin flip mainly due to the fact that there are so many more combinations of ak then the pairs.




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 359,583,840  games     0.031 secs    11,599,478,709  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    47.366%     45.79%    01.58%         164644764      5675268.00   { QQ }
Hand 1:    52.634%     51.06%    01.58%         183588540      5675268.00   { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


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That's only helpful if all the hands in the range call the shove, chances are you only get looked up by AA/KK

[LuckyLloyd]

One of the things I find really interesting on this forum is the way in which people are completely incapable of analysing a situation outside of whether their tournament life will be on the line or not. So in this hand, we should be shoving in the 80 BBs with QQ to a tiny 3 - bet and 'if he has AA or KK good luck to him' because we will still have a 'workable stack behind'. But I would bet a lot of money on the fact that if we had 15.5k to start the hand and a shove put our zomg tournament LIIIIFE at risk the consensus would be to 'call the 3.2k and see' or pass.

What chips we will have behind if we shove and lose is absolutely irrelevant. Shoving is awful:

- Traditionally, a 3 - bet to 1600 over an early position raise to 600 is super, duper strong;
- The parts of his range that are AQo, AQs, JJ, 1010 all fold when you shove;
- I guess he may also get tournament life syndrome and fold AKo, AKs a lot;
- But he never folds AA or KK;

This is a tough spot because either calling or folding is somewhat acceptable - and arguments can be made for both. Not because shoving is a viable option.

I am also still trying to work out why the op would think that the opponent would NOT reraise to 1600 with a pair > TT. 

[GlasgowBandit]

I am also still trying to work out why the op would think that the opponent would NOT reraise to 1600 with a pair > TT. 

I don't think my opponent in this hand would be so ballsy to attempt this.  When he is short he can play reckless but when he has an above average stack from experience he plays very tight and plays premium hands till he has a monster then he loosens up and becomes LAG and trys taking players out with shorter stacks.  Having this information to hand made it a helluva lot easy for me to put him on a very tight range.  The problem I have is although I knew my read was good I found myself unable to pass QQ because i let a little doubt set in and thought what if he does have AK maybe we could be reason.

Initially I thought to myself going into the break why didn't you pass - show the table the QQ and show you are capable of making big big passes. 
Then my line of thought was maybe he should have called the 2400 and hoped to peel off a flop and hit the set, but what if we face another raise?

Would another option have been to maybe put in a another bet of say 8k and see if we get him to pass AKs /AKo/JJ and if he shoes on us then we can fold?  Or would we?  because we have put almost half of his stack in the middle so is it viable for us to pass with whats in the middle and what we would have to call?

[byronkincaid]

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[LuckyLloyd]

I am also still trying to work out why the op would think that the opponent would NOT reraise to 1600 with a pair > TT. 

I don't think my opponent in this hand would be so ballsy to attempt this.  When he is short he can play reckless but when he has an above average stack from experience he plays very tight and plays premium hands till he has a monster then he loosens up and becomes LAG and trys taking players out with shorter stacks.  Having this information to hand made it a helluva lot easy for me to put him on a very tight range.  The problem I have is although I knew my read was good I found myself unable to pass QQ because i let a little doubt set in and thought what if he does have AK maybe we could be reason.

Initially I thought to myself going into the break why didn't you pass - show the table the QQ and show you are capable of making big big passes. 
Then my line of thought was maybe he should have called the 2400 and hoped to peel off a flop and hit the set, but what if we face another raise?

Would another option have been to maybe put in a another bet of say 8k and see if we get him to pass AKs /AKo/JJ and if he shoes on us then we can fold?  Or would we?  because we have put almost half of his stack in the middle so is it viable for us to pass with whats in the middle and what we would have to call?

Sorry, I see now what is confusing me.

You typed > TT when you meant < TT.

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If you fold, don't show. You're giving away information which is not neccesary. And showing people you are willing to make big passes is an invitation to be 3 - bet and floated all day long.

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A re - raise to 8k achieves nothing that flatcalling the 3.2k won't. Both actions will appear very strong - and he will probably shove AA, KK in both situations. Given that this is live he may call AQs+; defo calling QQ - 1010.

You may be faced with a tough decision on the flop, turn or river if you call and he calls. But the more I think about it the more I think it is the best option.

[AlexMartin]

Suerely this deep it cant be optimal to shove? Id have thought you can peel one and re-evaluate.

[GlasgowBandit]

Suerely this deep it cant be optimal to shove? Id have thought you can peel one and re-evaluate.

In hindsight I would agree. 

But say the flop comes down and we are now OOP for the rest of the hand whats our move?

[M3boy]

Suerely this deep it cant be optimal to shove? Id have thought you can peel one and re-evaluate.

Alex (and others), do you not re raise a PFR from c/l when you are in 2nd c/l ?

Reason being that c/l will not want to tangle with you with QQ or less ?

I have used this move effectively in the past to steal a PFR from c/l

[LuckyLloyd]

Suerely this deep it cant be optimal to shove? Id have thought you can peel one and re-evaluate.

Alex (and others), do you not re raise a PFR from c/l when you are in 2nd c/l ?

Reason being that c/l will not want to tangle with you with QQ or less ?

I have used this move effectively in the past to steal a PFR from c/l

This deep the facts of who is cl or not cl are irrelevant. All that matters is that we are 80BBs effective deep and have raised standard from EP and been 3 - bet really small by a player who we do not believe will ever do it with a wide range.

As I have said many, many times before - the importance in analysis is identifying what line carries the greatest expectation. Twaddle about what position we are in in a tournament or our tournament life or whatever probably will mean nothing in the vast majority of situations.

[LuckyLloyd]

But say the flop comes down and we are now OOP for the rest of the hand whats our move?

Check. Take it from there.

[AlexMartin]

Suerely this deep it cant be optimal to shove? Id have thought you can peel one and re-evaluate.

In hindsight I would agree. 

But say the flop comes down and we are now OOP for the rest of the hand whats our move?

I am prolly being a hindsight warrior but i do think flatting gets us the most chips in the long run.

Remember that every single option is open to you at every stage of this hand. Just because you have a big hand on a v.good flop doesnt mean that we are not always in control of our actions/ are forced to adopt a standardised "correct" play. Deep down you know he doesnt have less than Jacks here but AK makes up a huge chunk of his range. You know the player, will he fire 2 barrels or is he like most and fires the flop but gives up the turn? Usually in this instance i lead flop and if raised am pretty happy releasing to a standard honest tag.

[Royal Flush]

Initially I thought to myself going into the break why didn't you pass - show the table the QQ and show you are capable of making big big passes. 

 

[Boba Fett]

The one part of my game that has been spot on recently is my reads on other players and my ability to put them on a hand.  The one part where I am lacking just now is getting a bit of luck in a race.  I sooooooo wanted to pass the QQ, but I had things going through my mind like what if I have this wrong what is he's not got AA or KK what if we're in a race with AK - then I was thinking about the button if he has any sort of A thats one less out for original re-raiser. 

Geez Peace Mr. "I know Im behind but its suited so Im gonna gamble" and then go on to horribly outdraw them.  Shove immediately as you cant pass a hand and you're running so good you're probably 120% to ping the case Q

[GlasgowBandit]

The one part of my game that has been spot on recently is my reads on other players and my ability to put them on a hand.  The one part where I am lacking just now is getting a bit of luck in a race.  I sooooooo wanted to pass the QQ, but I had things going through my mind like what if I have this wrong what is he's not got AA or KK what if we're in a race with AK - then I was thinking about the button if he has any sort of A thats one less out for original re-raiser. 

Geez Peace Mr. "I know Im behind but its suited so Im gonna gamble" and then go on to horribly outdraw them.  Shove immediately as you cant pass a hand and you're running so good you're probably 120% to ping the case Q

 

Its becoming tedious now.  Your the only person at that table and out of everyone else you have told the story too that didn't think that was the right call.

You even missed out a few key facts when telling John the story.

[Boba Fett]

The one part of my game that has been spot on recently is my reads on other players and my ability to put them on a hand.  The one part where I am lacking just now is getting a bit of luck in a race.  I sooooooo wanted to pass the QQ, but I had things going through my mind like what if I have this wrong what is he's not got AA or KK what if we're in a race with AK - then I was thinking about the button if he has any sort of A thats one less out for original re-raiser. 

Geez Peace Mr. "I know Im behind but its suited so Im gonna gamble" and then go on to horribly outdraw them.  Shove immediately as you cant pass a hand and you're running so good you're probably 120% to ping the case Q

 

Its becoming tedious now.  Your the only person at that table and out of everyone else you have told the story too that didn't think that was the right call.

You even missed out a few key facts when telling John the story.

No I didnt, I told it exact, thats not the point though, you've stuck your chips in blatantly knowing you were behind loads of times the last few weeks and you've been running fairly hot with them