Surely its time we are all on a DNA database

[madasahatstand]

Question:

If a family member was murdered and the only evidence against the criminal was a DNA link, would you be glad that that link was there or would you be asking the court not to convict because the criminals civil liberty/freedom of choice had been infringed??

Geo

what is the purpose if this Q? of course any family member would latch onto the DNA link!!  it eases their pain

it has nothing to do with civil liberties/loss of freedom

The purpose of the question was to ascertain whether the "I'll fight for your rights" brigade would be happy for evidence which was gathered by a method they disagreed with should be used in court. The purpose of linking it to a family member was to ask them to really think about it before replying.

And I'm glad you agree that it has nothing to do with civil liberties/loss of freedom.

Geo.

 

[AndrewT]

I agree, the database used was built for purpose, to identify wqho the Germans wanted and then carry out what they did. The fact that you feel that this tactic would be used in mordern day Britain totally astounds me.

But surely the point it that it could be. We don't know all the ways in which such a repository of valuable information could be used for nefarious means.

[Colchester Kev]

I am with totalise here ... I can see no logical reason why anyone would refuse to give a sample for a database unless.


1, you have committed a crime and are fearful that doing so would mean you get caught and convicted.

2, you are an anarchist and are totally against anything authoritarian.

[doubleup]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered. 

Totalise, you make your living by make better risk based decisions than your opponents on the poker table.  Why does that logic go out the window when you are considering a) the actual instances of these crimes b) whether these crimes would actually be less likely if such a database existed c) the possible misuse of the information on the database to intervene in citizens lives d) the huge cost of maintaing the database and the loss of other public services.

A hypothetical situation:  Lets say a gene that leads to premature death is discovered and there is a simple cure.  The dna database can identify all those at risk.  There is no doubt that under those circumstances the database would be used to identify those at risk.  Once this happens the genie is out of the bottle.  What other interventions will take place?  What other assumptions will be made about individuals as various patterns in genes are discovered?  Perhaps a terrorist gene?  Perhaps a gene that according to scientists is highly likely to lead to anti-social behaviour - better lock them up just in case.

   

i want to know about the misuse of the data... coz i really have no understanding of it.

My hypothetical example is a scenario where the data will ultimately be used for other purposes than the detection of crime.

ok explain that! where would our DNA get voilated.

Your dna is yours.  It is a blueprint of your physical self.  It is far more than a mostly unique identifier.  Anyone in possession of it can use it to make assumptions about diseases you may suffer from and perhaps character traits.  It is MY CHOICE who I want to give this information.  There is a high probability that as genetic research progresses such a database will be used for interventions in citizens lives.

[Geo the Sarge]

It is possible to appreciate the value of DNA evidence in solving crime and disagree with the value of a "compulsory" national DNA database. Therefore your question is somewhat flawed.

Hi Diceman,

Assume this reply is for me. I've never stated that the Database should be compulsory, I myself would have no problem with providing a sample for this database, I just can't understand why others would have a problem with it and the civil liberties thing doesn't cut it with me.

All of us have more details sitting on various databases that are potentially more harmful to us if used incorrectly that no-one seems too bothered about. DVLA - passport - Census - medical regards etc. etcd. I just don't see that it is any bigger a deal.

geo

[AndrewT]

The purpose of the question was to ascertain whether the "I'll fight for your rights" brigade would be happy for evidence which was gathered by a method they disagreed with should be used in court. The purpose of linking it to a family member was to ask them to really think about it before replying.

There is only one right truly worth fighting for.

[totalise]

i see a lot of words, but i see no logic. I want one person with an IQ bigger then zero, tell me in lay terms, why woudl you not give a sample. Are you a drug dealer? if not... why? why would u hate ur life on a sample

[doubleup]

I am with totalise here ... I can see no logical reason why anyone would refuse to give a sample for a database unless.


1, you have committed a crime and are fearful that doing so would mean you get caught and convicted.

2, you are an anarchist and are totally against anything authoritarian.

Yeah thats what they were saying in the beerkellers in the 30s.  Think a bit more about what we are debating here.

[thediceman]

I am with totalise here ... I can see no logical reason why anyone would refuse to give a sample for a database unless.


1, you have committed a crime and are fearful that doing so would mean you get caught and convicted.

2, you are an anarchist and are totally against anything authoritarian.

3. Concerned at the potential mis use of information.

4. Have a lack of faith in the ability of certain parties to manage this information. It's not like there hasn;t been presidents.

[doubleup]

i see a lot of words, but i see no logic. I want one person with an IQ bigger then zero, tell me in lay terms, why woudl you not give a sample. Are you a drug dealer? if not... why? why would u hate ur life on a sample

BECAUSE MY FECKING DNA IS MY PROPERTY JUST AS MUCH AS MY HEART LUNGS AND BRAINS ARE.  iT IS MY CHOICE WHO I GIVE IT TO.

[totalise]

i see a lot of words, but i see no logic. I want one person with an IQ bigger then zero, tell me in lay terms, why woudl you not give a sample. Are you a drug dealer? if not... why? why would u hate ur life on a sample

BECAUSE MY FECKING DNA IS MY PROPERTY JUST AS MUCH AS MY HEART LUNGS AND BRAINS ARE.  iT IS MY CHOICE WHO I GIVE IT TO.

makes no sense.. but at least you used caps!

[Colchester Kev]

I am with totalise here ... I can see no logical reason why anyone would refuse to give a sample for a database unless.


1, you have committed a crime and are fearful that doing so would mean you get caught and convicted.

2, you are an anarchist and are totally against anything authoritarian.

3. Concerned at the potential mis use of information.

4. Have a lack of faith in the ability of certain parties to manage this information. It's not like there hasn;t been presidents.

yes, but as has been said earlier, what about your medical records, your bank details, DVLA, Insurance policies, etc etc ...   why is a dna database so abhorrent to some people yet they have more than enough of their personal details splashed about on a million and one databases ... the difference between these and DNA is surely the DNA database could actually do some good.

[Geo the Sarge]

I am with totalise here ... I can see no logical reason why anyone would refuse to give a sample for a database unless.


1, you have committed a crime and are fearful that doing so would mean you get caught and convicted.

2, you are an anarchist and are totally against anything authoritarian.

Yeah thats what they were saying in the beerkellers in the 30s.  Think a bit more about what we are debating here.

I'm thiking about the potential of making it safer for my grandchildren........what are you thinking about??

Geo

[thediceman]

Voluntary declaration vs totalitarian state compulsory scheme.

[Geo the Sarge]

i see a lot of words, but i see no logic. I want one person with an IQ bigger then zero, tell me in lay terms, why woudl you not give a sample. Are you a drug dealer? if not... why? why would u hate ur life on a sample

BECAUSE MY FECKING DNA IS MY PROPERTY JUST AS MUCH AS MY HEART LUNGS AND BRAINS ARE.  iT IS MY CHOICE WHO I GIVE IT TO.

If this is your typical response to a debate where not everyone agrees with you, I'd feel safer if you were on the database. LOL

Geo