Complex Hand Problem - Pre Flop - Cut Off Seat

[Harry Demetriou]

Before I start this bare in mind there will be a lot of disagreement and that we will have to do this in several parts from pre flop to flop to turn and for various hands in various positions.

Subsequent threads will be called Complex Hand Problem Pre-Flop with Position - Flop - Turn respectively.

So as Tikay asked here we go.........

Deep in a tournament with a 10 handed table with everyone at the table having plenty of chips (more specific details as the hand develops with regard to stack sizes)

Blinds are 1000/2000 with 300 Antes (6000 in pot for those bad at maths)

Early position limps for 2000, mid position calls for 2000 and you are in the cutt off seat with 

What do you do?

Bear in mind I want everyones thinking on what they do and amount of raises/bets etc etc and I'll post my thoughts after we have had a few responses.
In fact I will move on to the next decision on a daily basis so this is going to take around 6 or 7 days to go through whist at the end of none of us are going to agree on the correct course of action..

BTW This is a real life situation that occurred recently to a friend and is interested in how everyone plays this as there is no clear agreement especially later on.

Hopefully it will be a good learning experience for us all.

[Dubai]

There are too many unknowns here Harry for anyone to answer imo.

You need exact stack sizes, table images off limpers, yourself and the blinds still to act.

Cant see how anyone could answer without knowing these variables and more.

[Harry Demetriou]

There are too many unknowns here Harry for anyone to answer imo.

You need exact stack sizes, table images off limpers, yourself and the blinds still to act.

Cant see how anyone could answer without knowing these variables and more.

This is just the start of the problem after this I will move on to the button and his hand and then the sm blind and his hand and then go to the flop etc etc

Basically this is the first part and everyone is deep and all I need to know is if you call fold or raise at this point and why.

I think there is sufficient information here at this point and this is the easy bit trust me.

[Dubai]

But if you know UTG only limps there with Aces or Kings you would never raise. Likewise if you know the sb, bb or button is crazy serial raiser of limpers, its doubtful you would limp. Similarly if the table thought you was a maniac a raise in position is surely more likely to get re-raised etc.

[Royal Flush]

Agreed. All options are possible here, but it depends on the UTG player and the blinds for me.

[JP]

Depends on the table and also how I am playing. If the table is fairly predictable and I can pick up a small pot with no hand I think this is a call.    has good implied odds and in 2nd best position it is well worth taking a flop imo.
On an unpredictable table with strong players I like to keep my decisions to a minimum so I might throw this away and not allow myself to get out played post flop.
Personally I would more than likely limp unless like dubai said there is a serial raiser of limpers in which case I fold.
I think there is a case for all 3 options and I think they are all close in value might be wrong though.

[TightEnd]

For the sake of this I'd flat call, subject to the caveats already posted...hoping to hit a flop hard in position

If I thought button or blinds were serial raisers I would raise to get in first or if I knew that first two limpers were weak tight types I'd raise to try and pick up the pot there and then

[Harry Demetriou]

I'll post my comments on the various scenarios and the next stage to the problem around 6-00pm every day but for the sake of those who need more info.........

You have just been moved to the table after a redraw and the only player you know is the sm blind who is someone whom you (in seat 7) have been teaching the game to for the last 9 months.

In the cut of seat (one off the button and seat 7) you hold 7h8s

Blinds and position of active players so far in the hand have already been described.

What do you do?

Maybe to start this going I should make a few comments now but would rather not as this is supposed to be a learning exercise and you have to make decisions based on limited and not complete information all the time.

[matt674]

Fold - even without knowing how many chips every player has or their table image. If i'm playing in a tournament and i have a decent stack size then there will be better opportunities to try and win chips than getting involved in a pot with 8-7 o/s

[TightEnd]

Thank you Harry...there's a fair few perfectionists here


I'm flat calling, though could argue for a raise...and let's see what happens in your next instalment.

Cheers

[Harry Demetriou]

You are chip leader with 200k at the table in seat 7 whilst seat 8 (the button) has 52k and everyone else approx 150k

To repeat the blinds are 1000/2000 with a 300 ante at the table so there is 6000 in the pot before you start. By the time it gets to you there 10000 in the pot as two players have limped before you (one from early position (2-3) and one from mid position (4-6).

[The Truth]

I would raise to 10k

[matt674]

Even with the extra info that Harry has just provided i'm still folding. There are two limpers in the pot both of whom could cripple me and the button is short stack of the table and could conceivably be in "double up-gamble" mode. I would pass and watch the rest of my new table to gain information, waiting for a better opportunity to get involved with my chips

[TightEnd]

You are chip leader?  

I'm raising to 10k.



 

[rivered]

you're only really hoping for two pair or a flopped str8, cards aren't suited - sure you'll not be given odds with two people to act before you if you have a two way draw on flop.  but then again, as you've just sat down as chip leader, you'd get a bit of respect and the limpers could lay down to a raise - maybe test the water with a raise to 8-10k.  depends on your style but personally i would'nt play unsuited connectors with three people still to act and two suspect limpers in early position....