Complex Hand Problem - Pre Flop - Small Blind

[Harry Demetriou]

With the blinds at 1000/2000 with 300 antes and the early limper and mid position caller/limper you called in the cut off with which casued the button to also call.

Everyone has approx 120k/150k except seat 7 who has 200k and the button who has 50k left.

There is now 14000 in the pot and it is 1000 to you and you are in the small blind with and you have 130k stack size.

What do you do?

[Harry Demetriou]

You are a player in the small blind who has been taking lessons from the cut off seat for the last 9 months on tournament no limit holdem and you are very conscious of what he will think of any play you make and thats why you know what these two are holding now (after the event) but not at the time. (Not that this will make much difference to your play I hope).

[TightEnd]

ok, I am going to start off with a controversial one


you can't fold being offered 15-1 in the SB

But you've got a bad hand, and perfect flop apart, you are out of position.

How about shoving in a raise of 15-20k to try and win it there and then.....the BB then passes and as long as you get past UTG the rest you think have marginal hands and are only calling because of odds

p.s If you see me doing this against you though, I've got a big pocket  pair (and that's what I'm representing here!!!)


p.p.s I'd actually call!!

[jezza777]

Now I would probably call, I am getting great odds and the BB would need an absolute monster hand to raise here. I would be wary on the flop especially of the button because he may push in over the top of any flop bet because of his stack size. This makes the hand tougher to play because I will not know where I am and will need a very favourable flop to have any confidence but I do think you need to see a flop in this situation.

[jezza777]

I like it Tighty but I think there are too many in for this play. Lets say you shove in a 20k raise and you get it through to the button who then pushes in for all his chips( 50,000) what then ? Can you fold here ? for just 30k more? the pot is offering almost 3-1 ( I think)

[TightEnd]

Jezza, I said I would actually call but

In the scenario you paint of my raise getting back to the button, why wouldn't he have pushed first time round in the hope of having enough "bluff equity" to pick up all the limpers before him?

I'm less worried about the button back raising me than I am the UTG.

[The Baron]

I like tighty's play here. Yes it has risks but after the initial limper everyone has given their hand strength away (weak). One you get past BB and UTG limper you should be in the clear for a nice pot. If you get reraised by UTG you pass. If he calls you plan on cautiously. If he passes the chances are it's yours. With 3 potential players behind him your sandwich raise should work here unless he has a very big hand.

Make it 15k - 18k more to pick up a 14k pot.

Calling is ok too but bar flopping two pair, trips or a made flush I would get out. If you do flop a monster and UTG has limped with AA or KK you may be in for a payday!

I would raise though.

(IIRC it wasn't an UTG limper but 2nd position, but I still feel the same)

[TightEnd]

my bad, it's UTG+1.....The principle behind the raise from the SB still stands though

In practice, table image is important here...you want your foes to be thinking "he hasn't done that before, he's out of position against four of us, must be a monster"

At Harry's level they then think "but that's what he wants us to think...steal re-raise!"

[Bongo]

Has the SB been at the table longer? Does he know anything pertinent about the other players?

Does he have the sort of image that would allow him to get away with such a raise?

I like the raise, although I may bottle it and only call.

[The Baron]

my bad, it's UTG+1.....The principle behind the raise from the SB still stands though

In practice, table image is important here...you want your foes to be thinking "he hasn't done that before, he's out of position against four of us, must be a monster"

At Harry's level they then think "but that's what he wants us to think...steal re-raise!"

This is true - I wouldn't make the move if I had been playing loose aggressive all day.

[RED-DOG]

Wow, this is great stuff Mr D, I hope you know how much we appreciate it

Thanks

[matt674]

I'd pass as i know that one of my 8's is dead as i've already called with an 8 on the cut off........

[Longy]

Lol matt yeah, being dominated by yourself thats a new one.

I flat call here, the odds are massive to see a flop. The raise idea is very creative but if you get called you are going to give up the pot very easily if you don't hit as your oop.

[matt674]

an advantage of playing multiple accounts so i'm told.........

I'd still pass even without the insider knowledge of knowing what cards i've called with on the cut off and save the half a bet for the future. At the end of the day what kind of a flop do you want to see, if you hit a set you could conceivably be outkicked, if you hit a straight someone else could have a higher straight, if you hit the flush someone else could have the higher flush. The only safe flops are 888 (which we know isnt possible), 444 or 567hearts - and then you wont get paid off for your hand anyway.

[Harry Demetriou]

Has the SB been at the table longer? Does he know anything pertinent about the other players?

Does he have the sort of image that would allow him to get away with such a raise?

I like the raise, although I may bottle it and only call.

Unfortunately you are looking at this from the standpoint of the cut off and only know about the sm blind because he is your student and despite this being after the event he has not told you about what the others have done to date at the table although it would be highly relevant here.