How strong do you play this?

[77dave]

Im sitting with about $1200 in a $2/5 game 10 handed lots of familiar faces

i limp on the button after 4 limpers with    sb calls bb checks.

Flop comes  .

SB bets out for $15 called in 2 spots all others fold action on us.

How strong so we play this?

[boldie]

Im sitting with about $1200 in a $2/5 game 10 handed lots of familiar faces

i limp on the button after 4 limpers with    sb calls bb checks.

Flop comes  .

SB bets out for $15 called in 2 spots all others fold action on us.

How strong so we play this?

I raise pre on the button with 4 limpers (for what it's worth, I'm a shit player though).

I probably raise to $50 here now...I love these big draws...except when they miss obviously.

[snoopy1239]

Gosh, I hate these hands sometimes. Whenever you get it all in, they always seem to miss. And when you play it slow, you hit, and grind the action with your opponent sitting on a set.

I think it's really important to have some information on your opponent here. Do we know anything about him?

Otherwise, I see no problem with flat calling or raising. We are in position with a strong hand and there are plenty of scare turn cards that can win you the pot if you miss.

[MC]

You could play this slow or fast. But perhaps fast is a better way to see the river, as you don't want to get bet out of the pot on a blank turn.

[AlexMartin]

WTF?
I take it you are playing a in small player pool with lots of regs Jim? If so you absolutely have to raise here all day everyday. You have position and an incredibly powerful hand. You want to build the pot now before things get scary for big nines. Also lets you take control of the action and see what happens on turn, before electing to second barrel or take a free one.

[maldini32]

WTF?
I take it you are playing a in small player pool with lots of regs Jim? If so you absolutely have to raise here all day everyday. You have position and an incredibly powerful hand. You want to build the pot now before things get scary for big nines. Also lets you take control of the action and see what happens on turn, before electing to second barrel or take a free one.

This.

[77dave]

I decided to put in a big raise and make it and make it $100 more on top. It really is only just over a pot raise but it looks like a big raise.

After 2 reluctant passes and the first player of course announcing he is laying down the best hand it folds round to the final player.

Now on the PHA board normal people will call this player Villian. Im gonna call him legend. This guy overrates himself and expects to win every pot. All his draws should get there and no1 can draw against him.

He takes and age then raises $300 on top with $600 behind.

How do we feel now.

[Longy]

I decided to put in a big raise and make it and make it $100 more on top. It really is only just over a pot raise but it looks like a big raise.

After 2 reluctant passes and the first player of course announcing he is laying down the best hand it folds round to the final player.

Now on the PHA board normal people will call this player Villian. Im gonna call him legend. This guy overrates himself and expects to win every pot. All his draws should get there and no1 can draw against him.

He takes and age then raises $300 on top with $600 behind.

How do we feel now.

We shove and expect to be flipping against his range.

How do we feel, well pretty crap cos we aren't good at flips.

[totalise]

I decided to put in a big raise and make it and make it $100 more on top. It really is only just over a pot raise but it looks like a big raise.

After 2 reluctant passes and the first player of course announcing he is laying down the best hand it folds round to the final player.

Now on the PHA board normal people will call this player Villian. Im gonna call him legend. This guy overrates himself and expects to win every pot. All his draws should get there and no1 can draw against him.

He takes and age then raises $300 on top with $600 behind.

How do we feel now.

We shove and expect to be flipping against his range.

How do we feel, well pretty crap cos we aren't good at flips.

given preflop action, what do you expect his range to be after the flop action? 

[Longy]

Hmmm i see what you mean now i have really thought about it, his range is polarised to sets, flush draw with overs, maybe 1010 and possibly some random bluff.


Something like this??
---
  20,790  games     0.047 secs   442,340  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    48.252%     43.81%    04.44%              9109          922.50   { 5s3s }
Hand 1:    51.748%     47.31%    04.44%              9836          922.50   { TT-99, 44, 22, AsTs, As9s, KsQs, 53s }

Be interested in your thoughts on his range, totalise.

[totalise]

well my initial reaction was to just send it in, but then i got to thining about the ranges, and i see you put random bluffs/overpairs in, which i really think is likely to be a small % of his range in terms of frequency, and then it got me to thinking that maybe just calling the flop might be better to see if the turn pairs, and then to see what he does... if it doesnt pair, i think we have equity against his range to stack off if he bets, sometimes gettin a free card (which might or might not be good for us) and if it does pair he probably bets with his (now) boats and check with his draws that might let us then jam the turn and try to get him to fold his draws etc etc

just ruminating more then anything really.. i dont think that pushing has a negative expectation, just pondering that maybe an alternative line has a better one. The internet style is to send it in the pot in spots like this to make sure we balance our ranges, but if our opponents think we are good, then isn't it already assumed on their part that our ranges are pretty well balanced balanced and therefore we can play an exploitive style on the assumption that our opponents think we arent playing an exploitive style? thats basically my point here.

I think at least one of those two paragraphs is discussion worthy.

[AlexMartin]

I have no problem folding now as too much of the time we are up against dominating flush draws and sets. I agree with much of what totalise said (esp internet syle and balancing ranges (absolutely key in the small player pools that you are playing in Jim to keep regs guessing) but waiting to see if the board pairs on the turn seems counter-productive given our hand is a combo of fold equity and outs, which likes two barrels and two cards imo. Given how action goes in this hand, i fold and feel pretty happy about it.

[david3103]

I decided to put in a big raise and make it and make it $100 more on top. It really is only just over a pot raise but it looks like a big raise.

After 2 reluctant passes and the first player of course announcing he is laying down the best hand it folds round to the final player.

Now on the PHA board normal people will call this player Villian. Im gonna call him legend. This guy overrates himself and expects to win every pot. All his draws should get there and no1 can draw against him.

He takes and age then raises $300 on top with $600 behind.

How do we feel now.

Sometimes I don't think I am cut out for this game after all - -I'll never be good enough to play at this level certainly, a $100 bet on a board that already has three players willing to put $15 into the pot just wouldn't be on my agenda.
Lots of hands to run up against that would reduce you to 2outs and plenty of scope to just bleed chips on a flop with a spade...
I am humbled by the thought that some of you would shove here, and feel naked in my lack of appreciation of the maths (see seperate post in Learning centre)

I will keep reading
and keep wondering
but right now
I am not worthy

[EvilPie]

Hmmm i see what you mean now i have really thought about it, his range is polarised to sets, flush draw with overs, maybe 1010 and possibly some random bluff.


Something like this??
---
  20,790  games     0.047 secs   442,340  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    48.252%     43.81%    04.44%              9109          922.50   { 5s3s }
Hand 1:    51.748%     47.31%    04.44%              9836          922.50   { TT-99, 44, 22, AsTs, As9s, KsQs, 53s }

Be interested in your thoughts on his range, totalise.

So does this range make it right for us to shove?

It seems reasonable to me that he's somewhere in this ball park and if we shove then we can possibly remove the AsTs KsQs and definitely remove the 53s from his calling range.

As we were 44% against this range then if we can remove the bigger flush draws then will we be favourites? If so then I assume we have to push.