analyse this!

[LuckyLloyd]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=36807.msg813549#msg813549 date=1222245309]

[
To be fair, Simon Galloway said - numerous times - that this was a once in a blue moon call, for specific reasons, unlikely to be repeated in the foreseeable future - & explained why.

Awwww, come on Tony, you are in danger of ruining this thread by reading a reply and absorbing the information within it to advance the discussion.

I'd say the exact same about these two posts tbh.

You've completely lost me there Mr LL Sir - can you elaborate on what you mean by "exact same" - exact same as what?

In that it has been explained numerous times why the individual scenario cannot make -EV into +EV and yet ye come back and repeatedly say "I only do this the odd time" or "there is no long - term" etc, etc. I shouldn't have used the word regularly in my post at the top of the previous page. The better the reg the closer to 0% a flat call would become.

[LuckyLloyd]

...but for those that enjoy irony, the reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect gets the nomination for "Most Ironic Post on blonde, 2008". On every level.

Read it (D-K) & weep. And laugh.

Great stuff, & I hope this thread runs & runs.

I don't go around commenting on hands from highstakes cash or critiquing the play of the best online tournament players in the world. The hands on this board frequently concern live hands (tournament or cash); online cash < $2 / $4 or online tournaments <$100. And pose problems that can be fixed through a better understanding of basic theory. They are areas of the game that I am familiar with and am comfortable giving an opinion on. Believe me, I don't believe that I am a spectacular poker player in any way, shape or form. I win in the games I play though. However, I have often gone into town and come home without playing a hand because the only seat open was the one with three guys to it's left who destroy me on a regular basis. It's all relative and I'm fully aware of that.

[totalise]

The theory of 10-J

1) when you miss, so will your opponents so you can bet and win the pot
2) when you flop top pair, shallow, you can use your immense live skills to fold post flop
3) when you flop a monster, your opponents will have obviously flopped a good second best hand that will double you up and you can use these extra chips to go on and win the tournament at will.


Stars in your eyes,
Little one

[tikay]

...but for those that enjoy irony, the reference to the Dunning-Kruger effect gets the nomination for "Most Ironic Post on blonde, 2008". On every level.

Read it (D-K) & weep. And laugh.

Great stuff, & I hope this thread runs & runs.

I don't go around commenting on hands from highstakes cash or critiquing the play of the best online tournament players in the world. The hands on this board frequently concern live hands (tournament or cash); online cash < $2 / $4 or online tournaments <$100. And pose problems that can be fixed through a better understanding of basic theory. They are areas of the game that I am familiar with and am comfortable giving an opinion on. Believe me, I don't believe that I am a spectacular poker player in any way, shape or form. I win in the games I play though. However, I have often gone into town and come home without playing a hand because the only seat open was the one with three guys to it's left who destroy me on a regular basis. It's all relative and I'm fully aware of that.

Agree with all of that, & I always read your PHA Posts, & enjoy them immensely. I don't always agree with them, but I'm sure you are fine with that.

The D-K reference reminded me so much of Mr Heller's fine book, Catch-22, that's all.

[Gamblor21]

The theory of 10-J

1) when you miss, so will your opponents so you can bet and win the pot
2) when you flop top pair, shallow, you can use your immense live skills to fold post flop
3) when you flop a monster, your opponents will have obviously flopped a good second best hand that will double you up and you can use these extra chips to go on and win the tournament at will.


Stars in your eyes,
Little one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

for the 'live' players who didn't understand his whitty humour.

[tikay]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=36807.msg813549#msg813549 date=1222245309]

[
To be fair, Simon Galloway said - numerous times - that this was a once in a blue moon call, for specific reasons, unlikely to be repeated in the foreseeable future - & explained why.

Awwww, come on Tony, you are in danger of ruining this thread by reading a reply and absorbing the information within it to advance the discussion.

I'd say the exact same about these two posts tbh.

You've completely lost me there Mr LL Sir - can you elaborate on what you mean by "exact same" - exact same as what?

In that it has been explained numerous times why the individual scenario cannot make -EV into +EV and yet ye come back and repeatedly say "I only do this the odd time" or "there is no long - term" etc, etc. I shouldn't have used the word regularly in my post at the top of the previous page. The better the reg the closer to 0% a flat call would become.

Thanks - that was the one word which caught my eye. Removing that, I pretty much agree with you, & I think Mr Galloway would, too.

I should declare an interest here - I am quite close pals with both the main protaganists in this hand, which might affect my judgement, & I was tableside watching the hand as it actually unfolded. In fact, I knew Claw's cards from the start.

[tikay]

The theory of 10-J

1) when you miss, so will your opponents so you can bet and win the pot
2) when you flop top pair, shallow, you can use your immense live skills to fold post flop
3) when you flop a monster, your opponents will have obviously flopped a good second best hand that will double you up and you can use these extra chips to go on and win the tournament at will.


Stars in your eyes,
Little one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

for the 'live' players who didn't understand his whitty humour.

No need - even Live players would have seen that one!

[PocketLady]

Internet players are having these skills dulled because they are just playing cards and statistics in the absence of people. To say the 10-J call is a bad call because it is 10-J and has x% to win against x range is typical of this mentality. On-line your cards are the very first thing you see, and you are already deciding how to play them before the situation has actually developed. Now when some of these guys multi-table they are just popping from table to table playing their hole cards and this detaches them from how their oppos are feeling and how they can be pressured.

Poker is about situations and stories but internet places all the emphasis on cards.

This might explain why you lose online, i am making far more mental decisions online that i am live, i am playing the player shit loads more than i do live. For me playing live is far more about the cards than online is.

Maybe you just don't realise that?

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind...Perhaps you could explain why?  Live you are able to pick up far more information about the player in a much shorter space of time, so why wouldn't you be using that information to outplay them?  Yes, ok, online you have the ability to track every hand and player you have ever played against, but in tournaments you don't have the ability to choose where you sit and thus who you play against, so a lot of the time you are playing against unknowns anyway.  I could go to my local casino and play the £50 f/o and there would be 70 runners, I would probably know over half the field and how they play/if they can fold.  Or I could go register for a $100 tournament online with 400 runners where I have stats on 30 players...I know who I'd rather be trying to outplay!  Even if I was playing at a casino I had never been to before I'd be able to pick up a lot more about the players in half an hour than I would online, and surely information like that is paramount when you are attempting to play the player.

[DUNK619]

Internet players are having these skills dulled because they are just playing cards and statistics in the absence of people. To say the 10-J call is a bad call because it is 10-J and has x% to win against x range is typical of this mentality. On-line your cards are the very first thing you see, and you are already deciding how to play them before the situation has actually developed. Now when some of these guys multi-table they are just popping from table to table playing their hole cards and this detaches them from how their oppos are feeling and how they can be pressured.

Poker is about situations and stories but internet places all the emphasis on cards.

This might explain why you lose online, i am making far more mental decisions online that i am live, i am playing the player shit loads more than i do live. For me playing live is far more about the cards than online is.

Maybe you just don't realise that?

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind...Perhaps you could explain why?  Live you are able to pick up far more information about the player in a much shorter space of time, so why wouldn't you be using that information to outplay them?  Yes, ok, online you have the ability to track every hand and player you have ever played against, but in tournaments you don't have the ability to choose where you sit and thus who you play against, so a lot of the time you are playing against unknowns anyway.  I could go to my local casino and play the £50 f/o and there would be 70 runners, I would probably know over half the field and how they play/if they can fold.  Or I could go register for a $100 tournament online with 400 runners where I have stats on 30 players...I know who I'd rather be trying to outplay!  Even if I was playing at a casino I had never been to before I'd be able to pick up a lot more about the players in half an hour than I would online, and surely information like that is paramount when you are attempting to play the player.

and you cant fleece people 4 baby guiness online

[PocketLady]

Lol, this is very true...

[X] Online poker sucks

[Royal Flush]

Internet players are having these skills dulled because they are just playing cards and statistics in the absence of people. To say the 10-J call is a bad call because it is 10-J and has x% to win against x range is typical of this mentality. On-line your cards are the very first thing you see, and you are already deciding how to play them before the situation has actually developed. Now when some of these guys multi-table they are just popping from table to table playing their hole cards and this detaches them from how their oppos are feeling and how they can be pressured.

Poker is about situations and stories but internet places all the emphasis on cards.

This might explain why you lose online, i am making far more mental decisions online that i am live, i am playing the player shit loads more than i do live. For me playing live is far more about the cards than online is.

Maybe you just don't realise that?

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind...Perhaps you could explain why?  Live you are able to pick up far more information about the player in a much shorter space of time, so why wouldn't you be using that information to outplay them?  Yes, ok, online you have the ability to track every hand and player you have ever played against, but in tournaments you don't have the ability to choose where you sit and thus who you play against, so a lot of the time you are playing against unknowns anyway.  I could go to my local casino and play the £50 f/o and there would be 70 runners, I would probably know over half the field and how they play/if they can fold.  Or I could go register for a $100 tournament online with 400 runners where I have stats on 30 players...I know who I'd rather be trying to outplay!  Even if I was playing at a casino I had never been to before I'd be able to pick up a lot more about the players in half an hour than I would online, and surely information like that is paramount when you are attempting to play the player.

I only have to play with them for a couple of orbits before i can get a picture of them in my head though, i don't need months of playing with them. Yeah you do get a little extra info when you play live which helps in marginals but it doesn't make that much difference. It's also because people are harder to outplay live, they play their hands pretty straight forward where as online people are pulling moves a lot more so you can pull re-moves a lot easier.

[AlexMartin]

Internet players are having these skills dulled because they are just playing cards and statistics in the absence of people. To say the 10-J call is a bad call because it is 10-J and has x% to win against x range is typical of this mentality. On-line your cards are the very first thing you see, and you are already deciding how to play them before the situation has actually developed. Now when some of these guys multi-table they are just popping from table to table playing their hole cards and this detaches them from how their oppos are feeling and how they can be pressured.

Poker is about situations and stories but internet places all the emphasis on cards.

This might explain why you lose online, i am making far more mental decisions online that i am live, i am playing the player shit loads more than i do live. For me playing live is far more about the cards than online is.

Maybe you just don't realise that?

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind...Perhaps you could explain why?  Live you are able to pick up far more information about the player in a much shorter space of time, so why wouldn't you be using that information to outplay them?  Yes, ok, online you have the ability to track every hand and player you have ever played against, but in tournaments you don't have the ability to choose where you sit and thus who you play against, so a lot of the time you are playing against unknowns anyway.  I could go to my local casino and play the £50 f/o and there would be 70 runners, I would probably know over half the field and how they play/if they can fold.  Or I could go register for a $100 tournament online with 400 runners where I have stats on 30 players...I know who I'd rather be trying to outplay!  Even if I was playing at a casino I had never been to before I'd be able to pick up a lot more about the players in half an hour than I would online, and surely information like that is paramount when you are attempting to play the player.

I only have to play with them for a couple of orbits before i can get a picture of them in my head though, i don't need months of playing with them. Yeah you do get a little extra info when you play live which helps in marginals but it doesn't make that much difference. It's also because people are harder to outplay live, they play their hands pretty straight forward where as online people are pulling moves a lot more so you can pull re-moves a lot easier.

huh?

[Royal Flush]

Internet players are having these skills dulled because they are just playing cards and statistics in the absence of people. To say the 10-J call is a bad call because it is 10-J and has x% to win against x range is typical of this mentality. On-line your cards are the very first thing you see, and you are already deciding how to play them before the situation has actually developed. Now when some of these guys multi-table they are just popping from table to table playing their hole cards and this detaches them from how their oppos are feeling and how they can be pressured.

Poker is about situations and stories but internet places all the emphasis on cards.

This might explain why you lose online, i am making far more mental decisions online that i am live, i am playing the player shit loads more than i do live. For me playing live is far more about the cards than online is.

Maybe you just don't realise that?

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind...Perhaps you could explain why?  Live you are able to pick up far more information about the player in a much shorter space of time, so why wouldn't you be using that information to outplay them?  Yes, ok, online you have the ability to track every hand and player you have ever played against, but in tournaments you don't have the ability to choose where you sit and thus who you play against, so a lot of the time you are playing against unknowns anyway.  I could go to my local casino and play the £50 f/o and there would be 70 runners, I would probably know over half the field and how they play/if they can fold.  Or I could go register for a $100 tournament online with 400 runners where I have stats on 30 players...I know who I'd rather be trying to outplay!  Even if I was playing at a casino I had never been to before I'd be able to pick up a lot more about the players in half an hour than I would online, and surely information like that is paramount when you are attempting to play the player.

I only have to play with them for a couple of orbits before i can get a picture of them in my head though, i don't need months of playing with them. Yeah you do get a little extra info when you play live which helps in marginals but it doesn't make that much difference. It's also because people are harder to outplay live, they play their hands pretty straight forward where as online people are pulling moves a lot more so you can pull re-moves a lot easier.

huh?

Sorry what i meant was there are less opportunities, they have the hand more often than they do online.

[thetank]

What of live players laying down their hands too much even when they do have it.

[Royal Flush]

What of live players laying down their hands too much even when they do have it.

Yeah that's the only advantage, still though i would rather barrel into a player who probably doesn't have it than into one who probably does but might pass...

That from your man who got 125k in on a QQ2 board @2kBB with 96....