ruling

[Hairydude]

Ariston do you not see how having the game rechecked is open to angle shooting?? the cards are put face down into the muck so it is impossible to determine what exact cards were out. The fact that the player dealt himself also leaves it open to suspicion. I agree if it had been video'd or even if a different dealer had been on the table and could remember accurately what cards were out then it would be a different matter.

[ariston]

players at the table will confirm what hand he had. His opponent is clever enough to declare 2 pair so dont tell me he didnt see the dealers cards. Anyone who is low enough to try and take a pot they didnt win deserves the poker gods to stick it to them whenever they get chance- karma is a bitch.

If other players on the table cannot confirm the hands (ie nobody can say for certain he had or had not tabled KJ) then the pot should stay with the other player. At the end of the day its a self deal comp and if the player is good enough to deal he should be allowed a little leeway for making a mistake instead of having the piss taken of him by someone angle shooting. Next time you are at a self deal comp take a look at how many players are keen to deal- not bloody many.

[Hairydude]

right well its a self deal £25 competition...how do you KNOW for certain the guy is angle shooting?? he could quite easily be a newbie- I know when I 1st started playing poker when my 2 pair was counterfeited it took me a minute or 2 to work out why I had lost the pot.

maybe this is not the case but Its the matter of uncertainty which is why I think the hand should be dead-there is less grey area if you say the hand is mucked therefore dead! I know it was tabled 1st but In my book putting the hands into the muck and conceding the pot at the same time means the hand is over- its forfeited!!

[ariston]

which is many peoples opinion even though the rules state that if a hand is tabled it speaks. It cannot be classed as dead if accidentaly mucked. If this happens the mistake has to be pointed out before the next hand is dealt which has happened in this scenario.

simple fact - HAND WAS TABLED SO IT SPEAKS AND IS NOT DEAD EVEN IF IT WAS MUCKED IN ERROR. now you made me get all shouty but that should be the end of it according to the rules.

[gatso]

simple fact - HAND WAS TABLED SO IT SPEAKS AND IS NOT DEAD EVEN IF IT WAS MUCKED IN ERROR. now you made me get all shouty but that should be the end of it according to the rules.

yes this part is correct and tbh I'm amazed that so many people think that a hand tabled at showdown can be mucked.

however that is not the point in this situation. the point is that the dealer has awarded the pot to another player, the tournament has then gone on a break, players have left the table and 2 minutes later the dealer has claimed the winning hand which only 1 player at the table has backed him up on.

it would be so easy for the dealer and a friend to work a fiddle here, there is no way the TD can be confident about what happened so he has to go with the original award made by the dealer. it would be different if everyone at the table remembered the tabled hand but if that was the case one of them probably would've noticed the mistake to start with.

Ariston, how would you rule if no-one backed up the dealer? would you still say that the hand was tabled so the dealer wins even though no-one saw it? that's not far removed from the situation where all the players leave the table and then he comes back with one witness.

[Cf]

Do you whine this much about every bad beat you inflict upon yourself?

This is a little unfair.

Obviously once I realised the mistake I made an effort to get myself the pot, as it is something the rules allow me to do. When in the end I did not get the pot I accepted the ruling, didn't make a fuss about it, and got on with the game.

I think people are assuming I'm posting this because I don't agree with the ruling. This is not the case - I actually agree with it. I posted the thread to see other people's views on the matter.

[AndrewT]

Do you whine this much about every bad beat you inflict upon yourself?

This is a little unfair.

Obviously once I realised the mistake I made an effort to get myself the pot, as it is something the rules allow me to do. When in the end I did not get the pot I accepted the ruling, didn't make a fuss about it, and got on with the game.

I think people are assuming I'm posting this because I don't agree with the ruling. This is not the case - I actually agree with it. I posted the thread to see other people's views on the matter.

You're right, it was a bit unfair, sorry about that.

It was just a reaction to the fact that the tone of your posts was actually suggesting the opposite of what you state here - that you disagreed with the ruling and were looking for people to back you up for making a mistake.

[Cf]

Any challenging I've done in this post was against people saying "hands were mucked, nothing can be done", as this is wrong. Now obviously, as there was no footage the hand couldn't be properly verified, but this is a different matter. I was challenging the people who thought that even if something could be done about it, it shouldn't be, as the hands had been thrown in the muck.

[dealem]

Roberts Rules
Decision Making
1/ Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
5/ A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts. The next deal starts with the first riffle.

WSOP Rules
A dealer cannot kill a winning hand that was turned face up.
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision making process. Uncommon circumstances can on occasion dictate that the technical explanation of the rules be ignored.

Last word!
If i could have been 100% certain on both players cards and what the board cards were i would have awarded the pot to you Charles. Because other players didnt see the hand or didnt want to get involved i felt i had to let the other player keep the pot.

[tikay]

Roberts Rules
Decision Making
1/ Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
5/ A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts. The next deal starts with the first riffle.

WSOP Rules
A dealer cannot kill a winning hand that was turned face up.
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision making process. Uncommon circumstances can on occasion dictate that the technical explanation of the rules be ignored.

Last word!
If i could have been 100% certain on both players cards and what the board cards were i would have awarded the pot to you Charles. Because other players didnt see the hand or didnt want to get involved i felt i had to let the other player keep the pot.

Steady on Sir - we don't want "balance"......

Nice Post bud. Sums it up, really, & kills the thread, too!

[The Sweeney]

Roberts Rules
Decision Making
1/ Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
5/ A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts. The next deal starts with the first riffle.

WSOP Rules
A dealer cannot kill a winning hand that was turned face up.
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision making process. Uncommon circumstances can on occasion dictate that the technical explanation of the rules be ignored.

Last word!
If i could have been 100% certain on both players cards and what the board cards were i would have awarded the pot to you Charles. Because other players didnt see the hand or didnt want to get involved i felt i had to let the other player keep the pot.

Steady on Sir - we don't want "balance"......

Nice Post bud. Sums it up, really, & kills the thread, too!

Yeah, this thread is as dead as the hand the TD was asked to rule on...

[relaedgc]

Having tabled your hand, your hand cannot be declared "dead." That means, in usual circumstances, the error would be rectified and the pot sent your way. The problem occurs when you all leave for a break and upon realizing your mistake, no one is prepared to verify your cards and the situation becomes his word against mine and the TD can't be faulted for taking the stance that he took. It's one of those things you ought to always be certain about before sending a pot to another player.