Call?

[david3103]

11 of 23 left in a £10 F/O 5,000 starting chips
6 at my table I'm SB and have c8,000 chips
Blinds and 400/800

Folds to Button who shoves for 3,700

I have    and have the Button's range for the move at any Ace or any pair

BB has c20,000 chips and will almost certainly call behind me (or, less likely, shove over the top)

should I call?

[gatso]

the problem here is how do you come up with

a) that shoving range
b) the fact that the BB will almost certainly call behind

I find both are quite unlikely

but given the assumptions-

you're a 3/2 dog against the shove so that should be enough to make you pass. even if the BB is 100% coming along for the ride with ATC it still only brings the whole thing to about neutral ev for us

[kinboshi]

So, you think you're behind the button.  You're going to lose to him most of the time, so why call?

I'd rather fold, and then shove when you are first into a pot rather than calling.

[bolt pp]

fold

[david3103]

the problem here is how do you come up with

a) that shoving range
b) the fact that the BB will almost certainly call behind

I find both are quite unlikely

but given the assumptions-

you're a 3/2 dog against the shove so that should be enough to make you pass. even if the BB is 100% coming along for the ride with ATC it still only brings the whole thing to about neutral ev for us

I'm confident of the button's range through observation over about 2years of the same game

BB was a new player at the game last week but I've already seen him call on a number of occasions in the same sort of position. His chip stack is the result of some dubious calls allied to some exceptional luck. Trust me, he'll call.


I was sure the fold was right and made it.

BB called....

[gatso]

the problem here is how do you come up with

a) that shoving range
b) the fact that the BB will almost certainly call behind

I find both are quite unlikely

but given the assumptions-

you're a 3/2 dog against the shove so that should be enough to make you pass. even if the BB is 100% coming along for the ride with ATC it still only brings the whole thing to about neutral ev for us

I'm confident of the button's range through observation over about 2years of the same game

BB was a new player at the game last week but I've already seen him call on a number of occasions in the same sort of position. His chip stack is the result of some dubious calls allied to some exceptional luck. Trust me, he'll call.


I was sure the fold was right and made it.

BB called....

as I said above if a) and b) above are correct then the call is about neutral ev. based on this it might be worth making the call for the gamble if you're the worst player at the table.

however seeing as you're sure of both a) and b) there's no way you can be the worst player, they're both awful, so pass, outplay them and then play with them both as often as possible in the future.

I can see no reason why you'd even consider the call based on your assumptions

[david3103]

the problem here is how do you come up with

a) that shoving range
b) the fact that the BB will almost certainly call behind

I find both are quite unlikely

but given the assumptions-

you're a 3/2 dog against the shove so that should be enough to make you pass. even if the BB is 100% coming along for the ride with ATC it still only brings the whole thing to about neutral ev for us

I'm confident of the button's range through observation over about 2years of the same game

BB was a new player at the game last week but I've already seen him call on a number of occasions in the same sort of position. His chip stack is the result of some dubious calls allied to some exceptional luck. Trust me, he'll call.


I was sure the fold was right and made it.

BB called....

as I said above if a) and b) above are correct then the call is about neutral ev. based on this it might be worth making the call for the gamble if you're the worst player at the table.

however seeing as you're sure of both a) and b) there's no way you can be the worst player, they're both awful, so pass, outplay them and then play with them both as often as possible in the future.

I can see no reason why you'd even consider the call based on your assumptions

I'll take that as a compliment I think.

I folded, and I guess I only posted this because of the outcome..... (right decisions are right whatever the outcome would have been had I made the wrong decision yes?)

Button went out here and I went on to go out later when I shoved my 10 10 on the final table and ran into the guy who was BB here with AA.....

[MANTIS01]

Never call half your stack away when you're sitting on 10xbb. If you have the nuts maybe you can do this. K-10 pre is not the nuts. Fold.

[Royal Flush]

Never call half your stack away when you're sitting on 10xbb. If you have the nuts maybe you can do this. K-10 pre is not the nuts. Fold.

What?

[Longy]

Never call half your stack away when you're sitting on 10xbb. If you have the nuts maybe you can do this. K-10 pre is not the nuts. Fold.

What?

Mantis is saying you have to pass kk in this spot, as it is not the nuts ldo.

Ok I give up, I haven't got a clue what he is talking about either.

[MANTIS01]

Never call half your stack away when you're sitting on 10xbb. If you have the nuts maybe you can do this. K-10 pre is not the nuts. Fold.

What?

Never call half your stack away when you're sitting on 10xbb. If you have the nuts maybe you can do this. K-10 pre is not the nuts. Fold.

What?

Mantis is saying you have to pass kk in this spot, as it is not the nuts ldo.

Ok I give up, I haven't got a clue what he is talking about either.

op has 8k. The bet is 4k. op asks whether he should call this bet for half his stack.

If you play the hand it is better to push than to call with an active player behind who will call if you call. Unless you want him to call. Which you don't with K-10.

This must be very deep meta-gaming if two heroes of PHA are boggled??

Wow I am good.

[EvilPie]

Can you remember what the BB called with?

You say you know that the BB will definitely call if you call? What if you shove? Will he definitely call then?

If the answer is yes then it's a shove because his range is so wide you're probably ahead of the BB anyway. You don't have to worry so much about losing the 3700 in a 40 60 / 50 50 when you can win the (bigger) sidepot against this uberdonk.

If the BB won't call with atc then you might as well fold because you're behind to the range you've assigned the shover.

[david3103]

Can you remember what the BB called with?

You say you know that the BB will definitely call if you call? What if you shove? Will he definitely call then?

If the answer is yes then it's a shove because his range is so wide you're probably ahead of the BB anyway. You don't have to worry so much about losing the 3700 in a 40 60 / 50 50 when you can win the (bigger) sidepot against this uberdonk.

If the BB won't call with atc then you might as well fold because you're behind to the range you've assigned the shover.

I wondered about this - and asked him after the hand - he said he would "probably fold" if I shoved.

He called with K2 off
Button showed A2 off

flop had a 10, turn was a K

hence my level of introspection about my original decision

I'm reassured that I made what seems to have been the right decision even though the wrong decision would have been a good mistake to make

[Royal Flush]

Never call half your stack away when you're sitting on 10xbb. If you have the nuts maybe you can do this. K-10 pre is not the nuts. Fold.

What?

Never call half your stack away when you're sitting on 10xbb. If you have the nuts maybe you can do this. K-10 pre is not the nuts. Fold.

What?

Mantis is saying you have to pass kk in this spot, as it is not the nuts ldo.

Ok I give up, I haven't got a clue what he is talking about either.

op has 8k. The bet is 4k. op asks whether he should call this bet for half his stack.

If you play the hand it is better to push than to call with an active player behind who will call if you call. Unless you want him to call. Which you don't with K-10.

This must be very deep meta-gaming if two heroes of PHA are boggled??

Wow I am good.

So you shove KK?

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: Royal Flush

So you shove KK?

The bb will call if you call so flatting with K-K max's the hand's value. Which is what you want. So I prob call. The downside is you expose the strength of your hand to any player with eyes. You know this thou.