Ruling

[Cf]

Ok, let's look at a few examples, all of which see this 900 raise first. What would you do in each of these situations, and why?

1) Player throws 300 into the pot, and says nothing.

2) Player throws 300 into the pot, and says "call".

3) Player throws 800 into the pot, and says nothing.

4) Player throws 1100 into the pot, and says nothing.

5) Player throws 800 into the pot, and says "raise to 800"

6) Player throws 1100 into the pot, and says "raise by 800"

Personally yes, I think it's up to the player to be keeping track of what's going on, but there are certain situations where you might make a mistake, and I think it's useful to have a rule to cover this.

One example I often see is the person in the SB just throwing in chips to complete, without realising there's been a raise - every time I've seen this they've been allowed to take back the extra chips they throw in and fold - it's the same situation pretty much.

[AlexMartin]

call
call
call
call
minraise
minraise

[Cf]

cf, that rule (which is kinda ridic and luckily only at the discretion of the td rather than set in stone) is for instances in which chips have been placed in the pot with no verbal declaration. if there is any verbal declaration as in this case then that stands.

as you like robert's rules I'll quote from them

8. A verbal statement denotes your action and is binding. If in turn you verbally declare a fold,
check, bet, call, or raise, you are forced to take that action.

Also, yes, the rules do state this, but the no-limit section starts:


SECTION 14 - NO LIMIT AND POT-LIMIT

A no-limit or pot-limit betting structure for a game gives it a different character from limit poker, requiring a separate set of rules in many situations. All the rules for limit games apply to no-limit and pot-limit games, except as noted in this section.


Implying that this rule maybe takes precedence. (Obviously in a limit game it's not really possible to make this error, or if you do make the mistake you've in all likelihood still made a legal bet so it doesn't matter).


Don't view this as me trying to start an argument by the way, I just enjoy discussing different situations where rules aren't clear cut, makes for some interesting discussion

[gatso]

Ok, let's look at a few examples, all of which see this 900 raise first. What would you do in each of these situations, and why?

1) Player throws 300 into the pot, and says nothing.

2) Player throws 300 into the pot, and says "call".

3) Player throws 800 into the pot, and says nothing.

4) Player throws 1100 into the pot, and says nothing.

5) Player throws 800 into the pot, and says "raise to 800"

6) Player throws 1100 into the pot, and says "raise by 800"

Personally yes, I think it's up to the player to be keeping track of what's going on, but there are certain situations where you might make a mistake, and I think it's useful to have a rule to cover this.

One example I often see is the person in the SB just throwing in chips to complete, without realising there's been a raise - every time I've seen this they've been allowed to take back the extra chips they throw in and fold - it's the same situation pretty much.

sigh, have you actually read any of the above posts? putting chips into a pot with no verbal declaration is very different to declaring raise, call, whatever

[Horneris]

1,500 ldo.

[dik9]

Ok, let's look at a few examples, all of which see this 900 raise first. What would you do in each of these situations, and why?

1) Player throws 300 into the pot, and says nothing. Less than 50%, makes it up or folds IMO gets the 300 back (some places don't allow any chips returned)

2) Player throws 300 into the pot, and says "call". Must make up the call

3) Player throws 800 into the pot, and says nothing. It's another 100 to complete the call or fold and forfiet

4) Player throws 1100 into the pot, and says nothing. Need confirmation if it is a 900 raise first or 600 raise like the OP says

5) Player throws 800 into the pot, and says "raise to 800" Min Raise

6) Player throws 1100 into the pot, and says "raise by 800"  Must Raise another 800 onto the orginal 600 raise

[gatso]

cf, that rule (which is kinda ridic and luckily only at the discretion of the td rather than set in stone) is for instances in which chips have been placed in the pot with no verbal declaration. if there is any verbal declaration as in this case then that stands.

as you like robert's rules I'll quote from them

8. A verbal statement denotes your action and is binding. If in turn you verbally declare a fold,
check, bet, call, or raise, you are forced to take that action.

Also, yes, the rules do state this, but the no-limit section starts:


SECTION 14 - NO LIMIT AND POT-LIMIT

A no-limit or pot-limit betting structure for a game gives it a different character from limit poker, requiring a separate set of rules in many situations. All the rules for limit games apply to no-limit and pot-limit games, except as noted in this section.


Implying that this rule maybe takes precedence. (Obviously in a limit game it's not really possible to make this error, or if you do make the mistake you've in all likelihood still made a legal bet so it doesn't matter).


Don't view this as me trying to start an argument by the way, I just enjoy discussing different situations where rules aren't clear cut, makes for some interesting discussion

ok, I'll continue to quote RR at you. the rule that you quote above referring to gross misunderstandings is initially referred to thusly

A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make
the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips
into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call
has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may
withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you.
At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the
wager, see Section 14, Rule 8.

it is quite specific that this is for bets or calls made by releasing chips into the pot. this rule is not designed for verbal declarations

[Cf]

Can you link me to the rules you're reading please gatso? I notice that the ones i'm viewing make no mention in this rule about whether it's verbal or not, and we have different rule numbers. It may be I'm viewing an out of date version.

It does seem strange to me that if you make a mistake you might get away with it if you don't verbally announce your intent, but if you verbally announce it you won't. Works for me though as I keep my mouth shut when making my bets

[Horneris]

cf>>>>>Gatso.

[Karabiner]

As it was a woman, she should be allowed to change her mind obv.

[gatso]

Can you link me to the rules you're reading please gatso? I notice that the ones i'm viewing make no mention in this rule about whether it's verbal or not, and we have different rule numbers. It may be I'm viewing an out of date version.

It does seem strange to me that if you make a mistake you might get away with it if you don't verbally announce your intent, but if you verbally announce it you won't. Works for me though as I keep my mouth shut when making my bets

I copied it from http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/pdf/RobertsRules.pdf which is an ood version but the exact same rule, word for word, is in v11 from 2007 but I don't have a copy of that on my comp.

[gatso]

actually, v11 is here http://www.pokercoach.us/RobsPkrRules11.mht

[Cf]

Ok, so in "betting and raising" we have:

13.   A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager, see Section 14, Rule 8.

which relates, in the no-limit play section to:

8.     If there is a discrepancy between a player's verbal statement and the amount put into the pot, the bet will be corrected to the verbal statement

which I think we agree on - verbal statements take precedence. However, there is an additional rule later in the no-limit section, the one I quoted earlier:

12.   Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action.

Which in this, and similar occasions applies. The player has raised not realising there has been a raise in front of her. The rule covering this mistake makes no mention as to whether this mistake was verbal or not.

It does seem strange that the rule is sort of repeated twice. I'm guessing the first instance is because there's no specific "fixed limit" section, and he wanted to cover it for that too.

[gatso]

Ok, so in "betting and raising" we have:

13.   A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager, see Section 14, Rule 8.

which relates, in the no-limit play section to:

8.     If there is a discrepancy between a player's verbal statement and the amount put into the pot, the bet will be corrected to the verbal statement

which I think we agree on - verbal statements take precedence. However, there is an additional rule later in the no-limit section, the one I quoted earlier:

12.   Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action.

Which in this, and similar occasions applies. The player has raised not realising there has been a raise in front of her. The rule covering this mistake makes no mention as to whether this mistake was verbal or not.

It does seem strange that the rule is sort of repeated twice. I'm guessing the first instance is because there's no specific "fixed limit" section, and he wanted to cover it for that too.

those rules are not exactly 100% clear but this one is

8. A verbal statement denotes your action and is binding. If in turn you verbally declare a fold,
check, bet, call, or raise, you are forced to take that action.

are you not happy with that? I think it covers this particular case perfectly well

[Cf]

those rules are not exactly 100% clear but this one is

8. A verbal statement denotes your action and is binding. If in turn you verbally declare a fold,
check, bet, call, or raise, you are forced to take that action.

are you not happy with that? I think it covers this particular case perfectly well

Yes, I understand that rule, and in the majority of cases it obviously applies.

What are your thoughts on rule 12 though? Why should we not apply it here? It makes no mention of whether the action was verbal or not.