Savvy play or out of order?

[T_Mar]

Just read this story told by Tommy Angelo on DC..... Sparked a load of reaction saying it was unethical, angle shooting etc etc

What do you ya reckon?

LOL'ing at the thought the of the carnage this could cause ...What would the ruling be out of interest in UK Casino, once the bb mucked his cards would he be able to take them back in this situation??  Could a ruling ever be made after the hand had finished ??



"There was a period of a couple years, I think it was around 2000 and 2001, when there was a no-limit hold’em game every night in a poker room in San Mateo called Pacific News. The room only had three tables. One of them was used for newspaper reading and dealer break-taking and players in waiting. The other two poker tables were used for poker – one for $3-6 limit high-low hold’em (<–Yes, that’s exactly what I meant to say) and one for no-limit hold’em. The blinds in the no-limit game were $2-3-5 (you can read about the Bay Area 3-blind structure here), there were two optional kills (which can make the game VERY big) and there was no maximum buy-in. The game started at 7p.m. every night. I was one of the regulars – one of the starters. Another one of the starters – a man I learned as much about no-limit from as from any other person – was Walt Z.

Here’s a hand Walt played that demonstrated the depth of his wisdom, and savvy, and ruthlessness. Walt was in the big blind position, but he had not posted his blind yet when the dealer started dealing. This is a very common situation. I’ve seen it thousands of times. Usually what happens is, when the dealer deals the second card, the player in the big blind is reminded to put his blind out. But sometimes that doesn’t happen, in which case, when the dealing is finished dealing and either the dealer or a player realizes that the big blind has not posted yet, someone says to the big blind, “Don’t muck your hand! You’re in the big blind!”

And sometimes none of that happens, and the big blind, thinking he is first to act, does actually fold. And then someone says something for sure. How it gets resolved at that point, well, it can get gnarly, and it’s not relevant to the story, so let’s move on.

Here’s what happened on this hand. Walt was in the big blind. Then the dealing began, Walt was busy talking to someone standing behind him. The dealer dealt both cards, and Walt had still not posted his blind. Then Walt looked at his cards, and folded his hand, about a foot or so in front of him. The dealer said, “Wait! It’s your blind!” Walt was a little embarrassed, and he took his cards back and posted his blind. I’ve seen it work out this way many times, especially when I very experienced player makes the mistake. It’s a courteous way to handle it because it keeps the game moving and no one gets upset.

Here’s how the betting went. It was folded around to the button. The button, the small blind, and Walt all had about $1000. The button was a tight player, and a smart player, plenty smart enough to take advantage of Walt’s telegraphed weakness. The button opened for $30. (The minimum opening bet was $10, so $30 was a normal sized opening amount.) The small blind was another tight, smart player, plenty smart enough to know that the button’s range could be extra wide here because of Walt’s premature fold. The small blind made it $100. Walt looked a little confused, and he raised it to $400.

Right then I knew exactly what had happened. I resisted the urge to stand up and bow reverently toward the Walt.

The button, who as it turned out had AQs, shoved all-in. The small blind folded. Walt called with – have you figured it out yet? – pocket aces.

It was probably accidental that Walt did not post his blind at the right time. Then he looked at his cards quickly and discreetly, saw that he had pocket aces, and now, in full awareness that it was his big blind and that he had not posted it yet, he folded, knowing that the dealer (or someone) would point out that it was supposed to be his blind, and that it would then be perfectly fine and normal for him to grab his hand back, laying a deadly trap from whoever happened to be unlucky enough to be moving around before the flop."

[jakally]

I like the fact that it's a clever trick, but not a good idea if it's in a regular game that you want to keep going to.

[boldie]

angle shoot...and a piss poor dealer.

[GreekStein]

the shove from AQ is funny

I would have still bashed Walt's brains out outside

[T_Mar]

the shove from AQ is funny

I would have still bashed Walt's brains out outside

lol, yeah ,thats if he got outside, got images of full scale riot taking place at the table

[Robert HM]

angle shoot...and a piss poor dealer.

This

[Cf]

That's way out of order.

If anyone ever did this in a game I run they'd never be playing again that's for sure.

That being said: technically his hand should have been folded, and his big blind posted. A fold out of turn is binding, and there's nothing stopping you folding your big blind.

[gatso]

angle shoot...and a piss poor dealer.

This

what do you think the dealer's done wrong here??

[boldie]

angle shoot...and a piss poor dealer.

This

what do you think the dealer's done wrong here??

Where to begin? Blinds go in first, once cards are mucked they are mucked..all that sort of good stuff.

[gatso]

angle shoot...and a piss poor dealer.

This

what do you think the dealer's done wrong here??

Where to begin? Blinds go in first, once cards are mucked they are mucked..all that sort of good stuff.

the blinds thing happens everywhere, maybe it shouldn't but it does and it speeds the game up

a big blind mucking his cards by mistake should always have them returned. this is accepted everywhere I've ever played in both tournament and cash games

[boldie]

angle shoot...and a piss poor dealer.

This

what do you think the dealer's done wrong here??

Where to begin? Blinds go in first, once cards are mucked they are mucked..all that sort of good stuff.

the blinds thing happens everywhere, maybe it shouldn't but it does and it speeds the game up

a big blind mucking his cards by mistake should always have them returned. this is accepted everywhere I've ever played in both tournament and cash games

your first point might be correct for a lot of places, especially tourneys..but in a cash game it definitely shouldn't.

someone mucking their cards should always stand, it's upto BB to pay attention...simple as that.

[gatso]

so we agree on the first point, it shouldn't happen but it does. more a house issue than specific to the dealer (esp in this case as it's stated in op that this is a common occurence)

and on the second point where do you play where a BB muck is enforced? I've had cards returned to me in this situation or seen it happen at probs every venue I've ever played in including DTD, grosvenor and LCI venues in this country and various others abroad

this is how it's put on the tda website by possibly the best poster on there

There’s a long-standing concept in poker rules that we often try to stop people from doing something they don’t have to do. The best example is stopping the BB from folding pre-flop when there’s been no raise of the blind. The BB is already in for the blind, and if they try to fold when it comes to their option, it is proper dealer action, IMO, to push the cards back towards them and inform them that they do not have to fold in that situation because they are already in for the entire bet that round.

there is however no actual rule that I'm aware of on this matter

[boldie]

so we agree on the first point, it shouldn't happen but it does. more a house issue than specific to the dealer (esp in this case as it's stated in op that this is a common occurence)

and on the second point where do you play where a BB muck is enforced? I've had cards returned to me in this situation or seen it happen at probs every venue I've ever played in including DTD, grosvenor and LCI venues in this country and various others abroad

this is how it's put on the tda website by possibly the best poster on there

There’s a long-standing concept in poker rules that we often try to stop people from doing something they don’t have to do. The best example is stopping the BB from folding pre-flop when there’s been no raise of the blind. The BB is already in for the blind, and if they try to fold when it comes to their option, it is proper dealer action, IMO, to push the cards back towards them and inform them that they do not have to fold in that situation because they are already in for the entire bet that round.

there is however no actual rule that I'm aware of on this matter

On the first point, yeah it's a common occurence but there's no excuse really...especially in a cash game someone should always be asked "are you playing?" when they haven't posted the BB yet.

Point 2; I know, and I understand, why it's done that way..it prevents people saying "But yadayadayada" and being difficult and the dealer getting a tricky time and all that.

It is however, IMO, not the way it should be. You either pay attention or you don't...end off.
It is one of the things that annoys me the most in poker..people not paying attention and then saying "Oh but I didn't know"...if we could stamp that out (and you will if you enforce this sort of thing) games would run a lot smoother.

In this case I reckon the player should get banned for life...and the shit kicked out of him..and have electrodes attached to his scrotum.

[gatso]

yaaaa, I agree with you that these shouldn't happen. in fact we only need to sort out point 1, if we do that then point 2 takes care of itself as the BB has posted so is aware of what's going on.

the only thing I don't agree with you on here is blaming the dealer when they are in all probability doing exactly what they've been trained to do. it's the house that's at fault here

In this case I reckon the player should get banned for life...and the shit kicked out of him..and have electrodes attached to his scrotum.

this is fair enough

[pokerfan]

lol gtfo standard surely, has no1 actually done or seen this before?