just need opinions

[Graham C]

Because of this

you have either made some crazy spewy CR bluff on the first level or have CR a hand with value and then folded, either way you are a bad player so i don't need to know your hand.

You've just stuck in nearly 1/5th of your chips in in the early stages and now you fold?   You're hand doesn't matter, it's your approach that is worrying.

[AlexMartin]

I'm afraid James is wrong about this. I think it's something born out of the internet game. How someone reacts to a bet both physically and strategically gives you information, information that you wouldn't have if you didn't bet. But don't take my word for it cos Kin asked yoyo in the well if he bet for info and he said "i guess all bets are information, so yeah". End of really. I understand the concept but it has just melted into don't bet for info.

raising/betting with the intention of folding is so easy to exploit by any1 half decent.

If you were betting with the intention of folding you wouldn't be betting for info, info to help you decide how to play the hand. Cos you would have already decided how your gonna play it, you're gonna fold, and that decision was based on NO information. Namely, I am weak so will bet out to prove that to myself. People who say they bet to find out where they stand are not betting for info. They are jut betting cos they are weak. So in the same way you could bet air here with the intention of folding...and you still wouldn't be betting for info.

hey mantis, I think your posts have improved tremendously since you first started posting but this is bad imo. it's fine to raise air cos you is bluffing. it's fine to raise your strong hands cos you is betting for value and happy to get all in. The middling inbetween hands by definition have showdown value. The money you burn raise/folding you could spend calling a couple of streets and maybe catch him bluffing or value betting a worse hand. Obv you can also fold if new info makes you think he has a better hand.

now this does mean that we have polarised our raising range here between nuts and bluffs and hopefully someone else (flushy maybe?) can tell us about balancing our range to be more unreadable here.

Walsall Grosvenor £50 re-buy last Friday. On the second hand of the night I call a 150 raise on the button with whatever. We go to the flop 3-handed...they both check...I bet a purposely small 150. This bet is for info. It is early and I want to know how the other two will react to this small bet. They both snap fold. And on we go. I know for any future hand vs them a small bet works well, so no need to bet big to steal. That's pretty good info to know. Just one example of betting for information.

mantis is right in terms of metagame information. For instance i always raise a donkebet from an unknown to see how they will react in future to my preflop aggression postflop. Other examples include how often someone will call down a 3barrel (shove) with tpgk.

[noble1]

Because of this

you have either made some crazy spewy CR bluff on the first level or have CR a hand with value and then folded, either way you are a bad player so i don't need to know your hand.

You've just stuck in nearly 1/5th of your chips in in the early stages and now you fold?   You're hand doesn't matter, it's your approach that is worrying.

1/5th is ok, if i had put in 1/2 my stack then it is worrying if got into habit of folding everytime then.
if i lead out and i get re-raised [which i would in this situation] and then i call it and see the turn, as long as it is a non club blank then i guess i would lead out again,villain would re-raise again maybe even all in,either way i will fold as the villain keeps telling me i am beat..i have no reads to go on or previous plays to draw on so i have to give them the benefit of holding a stronger hand than me...or do you still think i should bust 166bb in 1 hand?

[Royal Flush]

very well put bolt,but all i ask is why i shove 2 pair for all my stack [166bb] and put my mtt life on 2 pair holding up.
plenty say shove but give no reason except ''you have 2 pair - shove'' or ''this could be a cooler but you have 2 pair - shove''

that is why i keep asking for a explanation as to why to all the above

Your playing a pot vs a pre flop raiser who has 3 bet a QJ3 2 club board, i am going to suggest this range

AKc ATc KTc T9c T8c 98c some of those are obviously more likely to 3 bet than others.

AA KK You would hope they wouldn't 3 bet because it would be horrible to have to 3 bet here because a large part of the OOP c/r for value range is going to 4 bet, but hey its the FTOPS and these things are filled with bad players.

QJ QQ JJ 33 Of these i would expect QJ to probably 3 bet the 3 sets probably 3 bet 33 as the likelyhood you are vs QJ is more often, with QQ and JJ probably flat the C/R more often than 3 bet it given that your OOP C/R is going to bet quite large on the turn most of the time with both his bluff and value range. 3 betting obviously allows you to get it in vs the value raise range but given you have the weaker end of that spectrum drawing near dead anyway the only reason i see to do this is to protect against an action card.

If you want to analyse this particular hand to death it would be handy to know oppo's screen name.

So basically in summary:

Please don't raise with top 2 on such a draw heavy board to then fold to a re-raise!

[noble1]

now thats a good explanation to your thoughts flushy tyvm...
i hope i,m not getting my 3bets and 4bets mixed up here but i 3bet and villain 4bets me,the only reason i didn't assume
he had AKcc ATcc here was because of my strong line of playing, the check raise must of signaled something to villain after he had basically pot bet it beforehand so when he re-raised with what looked like a suck me in bet i put him on a set or
AA KK  KTcc   , sets i'm buggered , against KTcc i'm actually behind with 2 to come and possibly he had AA KK but like you said AA KK most of the time would just call my re-raise and see a turn card.
So i considered with 143bb left and a good structure i would fold and find some better spots...

but thx for your reasoning,gives me something to think about ty ty

regards
noble

[Royal Flush]

You checked he bet (bet 1) you c/r (bet 2) he re-raised (bet 3)


Hope that clears up your confusion.


Why would he 3 bet AKc but not ATc, why would he 3 bet sets?

I am all for finding better spots, with that reason in mind if i felt i didn't want to get in a big pot this early without the nuts i would check call the flop, see what the turn brings etc, your hand will be under repped and you will get more down the line vs AJ/KJ/KQ/AQ type hands.

It seems to me your line of thinking is "what have i got, what part of his range does that play badly against, that must be what he has"

In fact given you have a Q and a J you are far more likely to be up against a combo draw than a set, however i understand why you wouldn't want to get this in so early so like i say DON'T CR TO FOLD! CR to get it in or flat.

[tikay]

You checked he bet (bet 1) you c/r (bet 2) he re-raised (bet 3)


Hope that clears up your confusion.


Why would he 3 bet AKc but not ATc, why would he 3 bet sets?

I am all for finding better spots, with that reason in mind if i felt i didn't want to get in a big pot this early without the nuts i would check call the flop, see what the turn brings etc, your hand will be under repped and you will get more down the line vs AJ/KJ/KQ/AQ type hands.

It seems to me your line of thinking is "what have i got, what part of his range does that play badly against, that must be what he has"

In fact given you have a Q and a J you are far more likely to be up against a combo draw than a set, however i understand why you wouldn't want to get this in so early so like i say DON'T CR TO FOLD! CR to get it in or flat.

Superb!

When you explain things like that Flushy, even us donks can grasp it. Whether I agree or not is irrelevant - we now know the thinking.

[MC]

I'm all in on this flop everyday and twice on Sundays

If he's got a set, he's got a set, but it is nowhere near likely enough that he has a set to be able to fold.

[noble1]

on your points about never check raise to fold flushy surely there needs to a little room to fold here because i think we both agree that check calling here on this board/situation and my position is the wrong thing to do.
This is where that daft saying about bets for info comes back to haunt us lmao , with me being oop having called a raiser i want to either lead out or check raise to define villains hand a bit more, i chose the check raise [rightly or wrongly] and after
he re-raised back that helped me define his hand a bit more..
We have a difference of opinion on what he has re-raised back with but i chose to fold,which i do not think is so wrong.
If i never fold having check raised and been re-raised back then this will develop into a massive leak in my game imo...
I do not fold everytime , it depends on the circumstances and all the other factors that lead us to making decisions...



anyhows like Tikay has said ''good post sir'' the last 2 in this thread you wrote are bloody good..

[AlexMartin]

on your points about never check raise to fold flushy surely there needs to a little room to fold here because i think we both agree that check calling here on this board/situation and my position is the wrong thing to do.
This is where that daft saying about bets for info comes back to haunt us lmao , with me being oop having called a raiser i want to either lead out or check raise to define villains hand a bit more, i chose the check raise [rightly or wrongly] and after
he re-raised back that helped me define his hand a bit more..
We have a difference of opinion on what he has re-raised back with but i chose to fold,which i do not think is so wrong.
If i never fold having check raised and been re-raised back then this will develop into a massive leak in my game imo...
I do not fold everytime , it depends on the circumstances and all the other factors that lead us to making decisions...



anyhows like Tikay has said ''good post sir'' the last 2 in this thread you wrote are bloody good..

he didnt say that, he meant you have top two pair, why the fk are you turning it into a bluff. of course you can check raise and fold, but that would almost always be as a bluff or if you had immense history and had some fancy play syndrome going on where you had an unusual dynamic.

[noble1]

sorry alex but i do not get why you think i am turning it into a bluff? i fold this spot because i think i am beat when i get re-raised back an amount size wise which to me suggested villain was strong and wanted a call..

thanks for your point though,out of interest if i had led out on flop and villain re-raised me and i called,then on the turn i lead out again but get re-raised again, if i folded there does my turn bet turn into a bluff?

[Royal Flush]

on your points about never check raise to fold flushy surely there needs to a little room to fold here because i think we both agree that check calling here on this board/situation and my position is the wrong thing to do.

Nah its probably the line i take, check call.

[noble1]

on your points about never check raise to fold flushy surely there needs to a little room to fold here because i think we both agree that check calling here on this board/situation and my position is the wrong thing to do.

Nah its probably the line i take, check call.

so if you check call , what is your plan on the turn and river?

[Royal Flush]

standard would probs be lead lead, if raised on turn call/call

Obviously depends on how the board develops.

[noble1]

i tend to avoid playing the check call line in these type of situations oop without a read on my opponent, thats why i favour to take the lead out or check raise approach on the flop so i can define my opponents possible hands better.

each to there own as they say..