Ruling from £50k Gtd at DTD this weekend..

[MANTIS01]

If I was kings man in this example and the TD ruled my hand was dead by saying "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers, you know what I'd do? I would ruin the game. And that would be very easy to do. I would take my full 2 minutes over EVERY decision. I would timebank every hand and the clock would have to be called on me every five minutes. I would call the TD for a ruling over any and every technicality. I would amass all the small denomination chips and refuse to give change. In doing these things the table would be playing only a few hands an hour. When the TD asked me for my reason I would say "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers. Cos like Bobby Brown said...two can play that game.

That's your prerogative.

I'm gonna start a protest about mantis's protest. 2 can play that game

child!

[avillan]

Anyone at my table who supported the TD's ruling about the Kings, which is very easy to do when it doesn't affect YOU, would suddenly drop that line like a hot potato. We are adults and the decision we should all support is the one that helps the 10 of us enjoy a fair game of poker.

Everyone else at the table agreed in open that it was out and out cheating, the player who cheated just sat there with a CGF attitude, obviously he had pulled this stroke before.

[MANTIS01]

Anyone at my table who supported the TD's ruling about the Kings, which is very easy to do when it doesn't affect YOU, would suddenly drop that line like a hot potato. We are adults and the decision we should all support is the one that helps the 10 of us enjoy a fair game of poker.

Everyone else at the table agreed in open that it was out and out cheating, the player who cheated just sat there with a CGF attitude, obviously he had pulled this stroke before.

I remember when I was 14 a friend of mine was caught masturbating by his Mum. Everyone was completely aghast when he told us. It was really weird as well the way it happened cos apparently he got home from school and nobody was in so he spread ALL his porn over the floor, got naked, and went to work. When finished he turned around to find a steaming hot cup of tea on his bedside table. Then he heard his Mum doing the washing-up downstairs. I believe he did not speak a word to her for 3 days and got a paper round so he could get out the house before she woke up. This is surely the absolute worst of horrors for any youngster. But when he told us one kid called Andy Hill said it wouldn't bother him at all. So you see, sometimes you just can't explain wtf goes on in somebody's head. I believe he is now an accountant.

[avillan]

Anyone at my table who supported the TD's ruling about the Kings, which is very easy to do when it doesn't affect YOU, would suddenly drop that line like a hot potato. We are adults and the decision we should all support is the one that helps the 10 of us enjoy a fair game of poker.

Everyone else at the table agreed in open that it was out and out cheating, the player who cheated just sat there with a CGF attitude, obviously he had pulled this stroke before.

I remember when I was 14 a friend of mine was caught masturbating by his Mum. Everyone was completely aghast when he told us. It was really weird as well the way it happened cos apparently he got home from school and nobody was in so he spread ALL his porn over the floor, got naked, and went to work. When finished he turned around to find a steaming hot cup of tea on his bedside table. Then he heard his Mum doing the washing-up downstairs. I believe he did not speak a word to her for 3 days and got a paper round so he could get out the house before she woke up. This is surely the absolute worst of horrors for any youngster. But when he told us one kid called Andy Hill said it wouldn't bother him at all. So you see, sometimes you just can't explain wtf goes on in somebody's head. I believe he is now an accountant.

WOW, thats fucking amazing................ Not wishing to hijack this thread.
I worked for a firm of office equipment suppliers in Cannock and there was an Andy Hill there who was the accountant. The firm went into liquidation after £1.5 million disappeared into a black hole and apparently that Andy Hill admitted some wrong doings!!!! 26 people lost their jobs because of it ;-(

[The_nun]

Bit of a sticky subject if u ask me.

[phatomch]

[Not the way I read it.

"However, if a player had raised" Yes, the all-in was a raise "and the raise had not yet been called," No, it had not been called at the time the cards were mucked "the raise will be returned to the player" No, it wasn't... all-in man was forced to forfiet his raise.

Therefore, under this rule the decision was incorrect.

My understanding is that the 'raise' was returned - the guy only had to pay to call the other players bet.

Correct.

The bet is currently 12,000.

Player 1 says all in. The 12,000 is matched and pulled into the middle. There's another 20,000 or so extra now sitting in front of Player 1 waiting to be called.

Player 1's cards are mucked.

Player 2 wins the pot as he's the only player with cards remaining. The pot at this point only contains 24,000ish. The uncalled bet of 20,000 gets returned to Player 1.

Hence Player 1 was required to match the 12,000.

No, unless I am missing something from op (BELOW)


Both stacks are playing about 25-30k and player 1 raises 3 x BB to 1800.   Player two comes over the top and makes it about 12000.  

Player 1 says all in and waves his hand forward, unfortunately the he's sat next to the dealer and the dealer does not hear the "all in" and takes hand wave to mean fold.  In a split second he pulls the cards and they touch the muck but can still be identified.

Now player 1 is facing the re-raise of 12k total, he has said all in BUT the dealer has taken it as a fold.  How can he be made to call the additional in anyway ? He has FOLDED/MUCKED/PASSED/GIVEN UP, due to the dealer error the action is fold, not call or all-in in any way shape or form. So he can't be expected to call any further bet.

[avillan]

This one didn't seem right to me... thoughts....

Both stacks are playing about 25-30k and player 1 raises 3 x BB to 1800.   Player two comes over the top and makes it about 12000. 

Player 1 says all in and waves his hand forward, unfortunately the he's sat next to the dealer and the dealer does not hear the "all in" and takes hand wave to mean fold.  In a split second he pulls the cards and they touch the muck but can still be identified.

Obv player one starts doing his nut.  The ruling was that players 1s hand was dead as it had touched the muck... standard i guess if still not a little tough on Player1.

The 2nd element of the ruling was that player 1 had to give the extra 10.2k to player 2 with a dead hand as he declared all in before his cards were nicked (all be it a split second before) << This can't be right can it??

Was Simon not around when this rule was made or something.. Surely commonsense would have said that he shouldn't have had to call the extra 10.2k...

[avillan]

BTW, who can you call for a ruling if you think (know) the td's got it wrong?

[dik9]

BTW, who can you call for a ruling if you think (know) the td's got it wrong?

Ghostbusters

[kinboshi]

BTW, who can you call for a ruling if you think (know) the td's got it wrong?

Ghostbusters

(Bobby Brown link again)

[phatomch]

BTW, who can you call for a ruling if you think (know) the td's got it wrong?

No one... The td's desicision is final, they are always right even when wrong, and any club that allows them to be over ruled has a problem, I remember walking out of a casino because the poker manager over ruled me on a cash table, when my ruling was correct for the published rules but she wanted no arguments.

[avillan]

BTW, who can you call for a ruling if you think (know) the td's got it wrong?

No one... The td's desicision is final, they are always right even when wrong, and any club that allows them to be over ruled has a problem, I remember walking out of a casino because the poker manager over ruled me on a cash table, when my ruling was correct for the published rules but she wanted no arguments.

So I guess that makes them GOD then?.
 
I always thought Dena was a goddess when she was just a dealer, now she's td for the GUKPT must be a superior goddess now?

[maccol]

[Not the way I read it.

"However, if a player had raised" Yes, the all-in was a raise "and the raise had not yet been called," No, it had not been called at the time the cards were mucked "the raise will be returned to the player" No, it wasn't... all-in man was forced to forfiet his raise.

Therefore, under this rule the decision was incorrect.

My understanding is that the 'raise' was returned - the guy only had to pay to call the other players bet.

Correct.

The bet is currently 12,000.

Player 1 says all in. The 12,000 is matched and pulled into the middle. There's another 20,000 or so extra now sitting in front of Player 1 waiting to be called.

Player 1's cards are mucked.

Player 2 wins the pot as he's the only player with cards remaining. The pot at this point only contains 24,000ish. The uncalled bet of 20,000 gets returned to Player 1.

Hence Player 1 was required to match the 12,000.

No, unless I am missing something from op (BELOW)


Both stacks are playing about 25-30k and player 1 raises 3 x BB to 1800.   Player two comes over the top and makes it about 12000.  

Player 1 says all in and waves his hand forward, unfortunately the he's sat next to the dealer and the dealer does not hear the "all in" and takes hand wave to mean fold.  In a split second he pulls the cards and they touch the muck but can still be identified.

Now player 1 is facing the re-raise of 12k total, he has said all in BUT the dealer has taken it as a fold.  How can he be made to call the additional in anyway ? He has FOLDED/MUCKED/PASSED/GIVEN UP, due to the dealer error the action is fold, not call or all-in in any way shape or form. So he can't be expected to call any further bet.

This was my understanding of events as reported .The dealer has accepted a "fold" thus no further chips to be added to pot.

[gatso]

This was my understanding of events as reported .The dealer has accepted a "fold" thus no further chips to be added to pot.

I'm running out of ways to say this. the dealer thought it was a fold but was wrong. what actually happened is there was an all in followed by an incorrect muck.

if all decisions were based on the dealer's opinions then there would be no need for floor staff or rulings. the ruling in this case reflected what actually happened

[Boba Fett]

Why is the dealer taking a hand signal as a fold?  The signal could mean anything, fold, all in, get that fly out of my face.