Bottom Set

[TightEnd]

but here all the information to me says that we're crushed.

Dude, don't you think all the information tells UTG man that he's the one who's actually crushed? Bet...Tighty raises...UTG raises...Tighty knows UTG's range is pretty tight...UTG knows how strong he looks to Tighty...and yet Tighty still pushes over the top. The very same action gets even more intense when it gets back to UTG...so he KNOWS Tighty has a very strong hand. Would you fold 3-3 here?? I doubt Tighty pushes here with anything other than a set or the straight. So based on the action/image your 3-3 is beating one hand. Would you fold 3-3?? If you can't how can you fold 2-2?

The way Tighty wrote the hand up it was pretty obvious he was beat, but the problem with saying you gotta fold the 2-2 is that your line would now question calling with the 3-3, and where is that going to end?

You also said in your post 'I was pretty certain I was beat' but still called the all-in. This makes very very little sense to me.

If you hold  and the flop comes  and an ABC player bets, raises, and then jams. Are you folding? You can very much suspect you're beat but you're never folding. Tightend has this habit of being very aware of what could beat him and when that better hand is revealed he thinks he played bad. But it is not bad to know you could be beat but still call. In his K-Q vs K-10 hand he could easily have been beat. But it's still a call.

I cannot fault this line of logic - am loving your recent posts MANTIS.
Even if i don't agree - which I most definitely do now -  i can always understand your line which is defo improving my story telling.

TBH Tighty Mantis has it pegged when he says that you are acutely aware of what beats you. It is, lets face it, one of your most exploitable weaknesses.
The fact that you pushed, would IMO mean that any "thinking" player would have to consider the fact that middle set is under threat. Was it an insta or did he at least pause for thought....?

Insta call of my push.

How does one focus less acutely on what is beating you? Make a few thinner calls I suppose....

[byronkincaid]

but the problem with saying you gotta fold the 2-2 is that your line would now question calling with the 3-3, and where is that going to end?

i had to fold bottom sets to nits a few times when i used to play lolfullring. no big deal really. obv you can't fold middle sets in these situations cos it's 50/50 as to whether or not you are beat.

[GreekStein]

but the problem with saying you gotta fold the 2-2 is that your line would now question calling with the 3-3, and where is that going to end?

i had to fold bottom sets to nits a few times when i used to play lolfullring. no big deal really. obv you can't fold middle sets in these situations cos it's 50/50 as to whether or not you are beat.

yup and this to the other point

[MANTIS01]

I think people are making light of Tighty's 800 raise. This was a raise that looked so weak that aggro man was pushing with a bare 6!! That's how weak he looked. You can't see that as a truth and in the same breath say UTG MUST be beating us. NOBODY looks strong here...so an old fox decides to look strong. It don't mean he absolutely has to have a set. That 800 bet is the key really cos it doesn't show your strength...so you get action.

Edit: If you add to this the fact that Tighty's image is indeed exploitable then to rule out the fact that his weak bet is being exploited, cos an old timer knows he can get a good reader of the game like Tighty to lay down 7-7 with a min raise, with his outs (gutshot) this would provide enough substance to make the call imo.

[noble1]

In his K-Q vs K-10 hand he could easily have been beat. But it's still a call.

i agree mantis that tightend played his dry side pot hand not very well,but that was mainly because he thought that his bet conveyed strength [dry pot mucho strengtho  ] and because of this made a bad read on a villain who over played hands who like most early on in mtts dis-regarded a dry pot bet as being strong.

In this situation it is not a bad thing to think what is beating us as long as you can think what villain is putting you on to make his bets and trust your reads of them..I would not want to dis-courage someone from thinking out a situation though as tightends initial instinct in this hand was spot on.

I disregarded 45

33,66 or an overpair for me..but he checks an overpair when checked to on the flop, after limping utg? I didn't think so

At the table I seriously considered a fold given this.

We have to fold sometimes if it makes sense to and here to me it does.Granted villain should of read tightends re-raise as a possible hand that was beating his middle set [66 45] but the fact is tightend has bottom set and it does not appear to hard to figure that villain has 66 33 or 45 from his [tights] perspective. Taking it a level deeper and then re-raise all in figuring that he met fold 33 because he might put tighty on 66 or 45 though Ismene met be pushing the situation a bit to far in this case.

If tightend had 33 now that would be a tough fold......................

if a raise to 800 does not look strong then what does in a 5 way pot , is there something i'm missing here? is tightend viewed as lunatic who makes big pots with air/1 pair type hands? and villains min raise sweetner on these type of textures is normally a pattern of betting by a set anyhows..

[TheChipPrince]

Hindsight is easy and most people, with Tighty having revelaed his oppo's hand, will say ''well, i think i can fold this, a higher set did look really likely i guess''

95%+ of people get it in here, me included...

[GreekStein]

I think people are making light of Tighty's 800 raise. This was a raise that looked so weak that aggro man was pushing with a bare 6!! That's how weak he looked. You can't see that as a truth and in the same breath say UTG MUST be beating us. NOBODY looks strong here...so an old fox decides to look strong. It don't mean he absolutely has to have a set. That 800 bet is the key really cos it doesn't show your strength...so you get action.

Edit: If you add to this the fact that Tighty's image is indeed exploitable then to rule out the fact that his weak bet is being exploited, cos an old timer knows he can get a good reader of the game like Tighty to lay down 7-7 with a min raise, with his outs (gutshot) this would provide enough substance to make the call imo.

lol just lol.

Do you really think any raise Tighty makes looks weak? I think the aggro guy was either a bit of a donk or talking from the wrong end of his body.

I also think ur trying to read too much into this and create scenarios, that from the information given, just aren't plausible. Old guy just isn't the type to play anything but a BIG hand like this. He's an old nit, not an old fox. Think his name was Laurence, not Doyle.

[noble1]

Hindsight is easy and most people, with Tighty having revelaed his oppo's hand, will say ''well, i think i can fold this, a higher set did look really likely i guess''

95%+ of people get it in here, me included...

all i want to encourage chipprince is for tightend to play out this hand/situation from villains point of view,then to me this hand begins to make sense along with available info. [conservative opponent,limp utg,5 way pot,patterns of betting-bet re-raise then min re-raise,only 1st level]
this is nothing to do with hindsight

[MANTIS01]

I think people are making light of Tighty's 800 raise. This was a raise that looked so weak that aggro man was pushing with a bare 6!! That's how weak he looked. You can't see that as a truth and in the same breath say UTG MUST be beating us. NOBODY looks strong here...so an old fox decides to look strong. It don't mean he absolutely has to have a set. That 800 bet is the key really cos it doesn't show your strength...so you get action.

Edit: If you add to this the fact that Tighty's image is indeed exploitable then to rule out the fact that his weak bet is being exploited, cos an old timer knows he can get a good reader of the game like Tighty to lay down 7-7 with a min raise, with his outs (gutshot) this would provide enough substance to make the call imo.

lol just lol.

Do you really think any raise Tighty makes looks weak? I think the aggro guy was either a bit of a donk or talking from the wrong end of his body.

I also think ur trying to read too much into this and create scenarios, that from the information given, just aren't plausible. Old guy just isn't the type to play anything but a BIG hand like this. He's an old nit, not an old fox. Think his name was Laurence, not Doyle.

WOW dude. From the descriptions a) Old school reasonably conservative and b) LAG aggro you know a lot about what they both would or wouldn't do. Cannot fault those readz. I don't think any raise Tighty puts in is weak, but I think raising 4x aggro man on a rainbow board doesn't look like a set wanting action. This is what talking-out-his-arse-man thinks, and this is what I think.

[NoflopsHomer]

great thread to read this one..

My thoughts are that you have to approach this situation like every hand and consider the action,reads on opponents and the texture of the flop.It also helps to not only think what your opponent has here but what does he think tightend has after seeing him re-raise a LAG?
If this was some run of the mill donkament then yes i agree folding bottom set is pretty tough..
But if we consider the opponent in this situation to be at least half sharp what would he put tightend on here to make a min re-raise pot sweetner , he has to think that tightend has something of strength here surely?
So considering he is old school conservative i do not think he has limped AA or anything as strong as this,maybe 99 88 77 but why the check min re-raise on the flop which 5 people saw and on a low flop you then see [from his perspective] bet then re-raise would it make him think 77 88 99 is strong? and to check raise to boot....
For me in this situation the possibility my bottom set are beat and the fact we are in the 1st level !! this is not to hard to fold if you have any sort of thought that our opponent has any sort of thinking ability.

 

[noble1]

NoflopsHomer was that worth posting? , if you do not agree at least explain why..

here is an article you should read , well thought out and written...http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-articles/asking-for-help-in-online-poker-forums-3728178

[ChipRich]

................................,-~*`¯lllllll`*~,............................................. .....
...........................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll¯`*-,..........................................
......................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,......................................
..................,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\... ..................................
................;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\....................................
................\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/...........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,................................
.................\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*.............`~-~-,...(.(¯`*,`,...............................
...................\llllllllllll,-~*........................)_-\..*`*;..)..............................
.....................\,-*`¯,*`)............,-~*`~................../...............................
.....................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;.................../.\..............................
.................../.../..../..../..,-,..*~,.`*~*..................*...\.......................... ...
...................|.../.../..../.*`...\................................)....)¯`~,........... .........
...................|./..../..../........).........)`*~-,............../.....|..)...`~-,..............
.................././.../....,*`-,.....`-,....*`....,---......\...../...../..|..........¯```*~-,,,,
.................(............)`*~-,.....`*`.,-~*.,-*.......|.../..../..../...............\..........
..................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*.............|.,*...,*....|.................\.........
......................*,.........`-,....)-,..................,-*`...,-*.....(`-,..............\........
........................f`-,........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*.....,-*......|....`-,...............\.......

[GreekStein]

I think people are making light of Tighty's 800 raise. This was a raise that looked so weak that aggro man was pushing with a bare 6!! That's how weak he looked. You can't see that as a truth and in the same breath say UTG MUST be beating us. NOBODY looks strong here...so an old fox decides to look strong. It don't mean he absolutely has to have a set. That 800 bet is the key really cos it doesn't show your strength...so you get action.

Edit: If you add to this the fact that Tighty's image is indeed exploitable then to rule out the fact that his weak bet is being exploited, cos an old timer knows he can get a good reader of the game like Tighty to lay down 7-7 with a min raise, with his outs (gutshot) this would provide enough substance to make the call imo.

lol just lol.

Do you really think any raise Tighty makes looks weak? I think the aggro guy was either a bit of a donk or talking from the wrong end of his body.

I also think ur trying to read too much into this and create scenarios, that from the information given, just aren't plausible. Old guy just isn't the type to play anything but a BIG hand like this. He's an old nit, not an old fox. Think his name was Laurence, not Doyle.

WOW dude. From the descriptions a) Old school reasonably conservative and b) LAG aggro you know a lot about what they both would or wouldn't do. Cannot fault those readz. I don't think any raise Tighty puts in is weak, but I think raising 4x aggro man on a rainbow board doesn't look like a set wanting action. This is what talking-out-his-arse-man thinks, and this is what I think.

Fair interpetation of this if he doesn't know Tighty's game but this could just be table talk too.

Unfortunately I don't think this has a bearing on villain playing a less strong hand like this.

[celtic]

Tighty's image isn't generally viewed in Luon as tight as he used to be IMO, certainly amongst certain players.

I still shove the flop here once i have been 3 bet against this player as i believe he may play KK/AA this way. Also as well he knows courtney would have a stab at this pot so the check raise option on the flop is gonna happen almost 100% here. Just unlucky obv he has a set.

[Laxie]

My head hurts