Massive Draw, what to do?

[Royal Flush]

4 betting into a 30BB stack is the perfect spot to be 4 betting, do you only ever 4 bet into commited stacks??

The only reason not to 4 bet is you have him as you say at kk+ if thats the case then calling pre is horrible, you say you always peel the extra 3bb here even if you know he has AA, taking that prop will just send you skint, fold or 4 bet.

[daviebhoy]

The worst thing that can happen to you with AK v AA is that you hit the flop in some way. Clearly you didnt know he had AA pre-flop otherwise calling his min raise is wrong when you are a 9-1 dog.

On that flop you have to go broke.

[Woodsey]

4 betting into a 30BB stack is the perfect spot to be 4 betting, do you only ever 4 bet into commited stacks??

The only reason not to 4 bet is you have him as you say at kk+ if thats the case then calling pre is horrible, you say you always peel the extra 3bb here even if you know he has AA, taking that prop will just send you skint, fold or 4 bet.

Is flat calling PF really that horrible? I've raised 555 and he's made it 1200 (645 more to me), surely with 30 bbs behind I gotta see a flop? If not then I'm a bigger donk than I thought lol.

[GreekStein]

4 betting into a 30BB stack is the perfect spot to be 4 betting, do you only ever 4 bet into commited stacks??

The only reason not to 4 bet is you have him as you say at kk+ if thats the case then calling pre is horrible, you say you always peel the extra 3bb here even if you know he has AA, taking that prop will just send you skint, fold or 4 bet.

Is flat calling PF really that horrible? I've raised 555 and he's made it 1200 (645 more to me), surely with 30 bbs behind I gotta see a flop? If not then I'm a bigger donk than I thought lol.

With the exception of Sam Trickett I thought you were prob the next best cash player I played against in Notts even though you do hide your identity from me online and needle me to tilt my stack off! We can rule out donk here (just!-lol) but there is defo a small leak in your thinking here imo.

If you put him on AA or KK then we should definitely be folding. It's so hard to outflop him and just as hard to then get paid. A nit aint going crazy on 10JQ or 3 club board and if he's holding kings and we flop an ace we don't get paid but as with what happened it's very easy for us to flop a piece/draw and stack off against villain.

If you think his range is wider than this then just straight up 4-ball the bastard!

[GreekStein]

4 betting into a 30BB stack is the perfect spot to be 4 betting, do you only ever 4 bet into commited stacks??

The only reason not to 4 bet is you have him as you say at kk+ if thats the case then calling pre is horrible, you say you always peel the extra 3bb here even if you know he has AA, taking that prop will just send you skint, fold or 4 bet.

Is flat calling PF really that horrible? I've raised 555 and he's made it 1200 (645 more to me), surely with 30 bbs behind I gotta see a flop? If not then I'm a bigger donk than I thought lol.

With the exception of Sam Trickett I thought you were prob the next best cash player I played against in Notts even though you do hide your identity from me online and needle me to tilt my stack off! We can rule out donk here (just!-lol) but there is defo a small leak in your thinking here imo.

If you put him on AA or KK then we should definitely be folding. It's so hard to outflop him and just as hard to then get paid. A nit aint going crazy on 10JQ or 3 club board and if he's holding kings and we flop an ace we don't get paid but as with what happened it's very easy for us to flop a piece/draw and stack off against villain.

If you think his range is wider than this then just straight up 4-ball the bastard!

Edit: With 30x I'm always 4-betting to get it in here.

[Woodsey]

4 betting into a 30BB stack is the perfect spot to be 4 betting, do you only ever 4 bet into commited stacks??

The only reason not to 4 bet is you have him as you say at kk+ if thats the case then calling pre is horrible, you say you always peel the extra 3bb here even if you know he has AA, taking that prop will just send you skint, fold or 4 bet.

Is flat calling PF really that horrible? I've raised 555 and he's made it 1200 (645 more to me), surely with 30 bbs behind I gotta see a flop? If not then I'm a bigger donk than I thought lol.

With the exception of Sam Trickett I thought you were prob the next best cash player I played against in Notts even though you do hide your identity from me online and needle me to tilt my stack off! We can rule out donk here (just!-lol) but there is defo a small leak in your thinking here imo.

If you put him on AA or KK then we should definitely be folding. It's so hard to outflop him and just as hard to then get paid. A nit aint going crazy on 10JQ or 3 club board and if he's holding kings and we flop an ace we don't get paid but as with what happened it's very easy for us to flop a piece/draw and stack off against villain.

If you think his range is wider than this then just straight up 4-ball the bastard!

Edit: With 30x I'm always 4-betting to get it in here.

Fair enough mate, I suppose you can never really be sure what someone is holding these days tbh unless you know their habits well enough.

[Dewi_cool]

sigh

[Woodsey]

sigh

LOL

[Karabiner]

Can he not have AQ here and still bet this the same way ?

Personally I don't mind the flat pre., but I would shove after his turn bet.

[Woodsey]

Can he not have AQ here and still bet this the same way ?

Personally I don't mind the flat pre., but I would shove after his turn bet.

That's what happened Ralph. I'm not too bothered what others think about the flat pre, I'd do it again we are deep enough IMO. Forget everything else, my real Q was do we want to coin flip it all here and now on the flop, we don't need to were are in a good position in the tourney, do we risk it all when I know its likely I can small ball my way to the money? So its a Q about the overall tourney situation as much as the hand itself.

Here's the rest of the history.

Game #7267618433: £1500 GTD (ID9205301) £30+£3 - Hold'em NL (100/200) - 2009/02/16 - 23:33:20 (UK)
Table "9205301 - 3" Seat 1 is the button.
Seat 1: Anthov56p (2315 in chips)
Seat 2: Deni27086 (4110 in chips)
Seat 4: Ibra17083 (9355 in chips)
Seat 5: Lauri12zc (5460 in chips)
Seat 7: Woodsey (8840 in chips)
Seat 8: Simpso77 (4315 in chips)
Seat 10: NeroDuck (6365 in chips)
Deni27086: posts small blind 100
Ibra17083: posts big blind 200
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to sigh [ ]
Lauri12zc: folds
Woodsey: raises to 555
Simpso77: folds
NeroDuck: raises to 1200
Anthov56p: folds
Deni27086: folds
Ibra17083: folds
Woodsey: calls 645
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
Woodsey: checks
NeroDuck: bets 1200
Woodsey: raises to 7640 and is all-in
NeroDuck: is all-in 3965
Returned uncalled bets 2,475 to sigh
----- TURN ----- [ ][]
----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Woodsey: shows [ ] (High Card Ace)
NeroDuck: shows [As Ah] (A Pair of Aces, Jack high)
NeroDuck collected 13030 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 13030 Main pot 13030 Rake 0

[Longy]

Can he not have AQ here and still bet this the same way ?

Personally I don't mind the flat pre., but I would shove after his turn bet.

Stack sizes aren't good for this, his turn bet is most likely to be all in. Pot = 4800 by the turn and nero duck has 3965 back. Which is one of the reasons shoving the flop is superior and in fact shoving or folding pre is even better.

[Woodsey]

Can he not have AQ here and still bet this the same way ?

Personally I don't mind the flat pre., but I would shove after his turn bet.

Stack sizes aren't good for this, his turn bet is most likely to be all in. Pot = 4800 by the turn and nero duck has 3965 back. Which is one of the reasons shoving the flop is superior and in fact shoving or folding pre is even better.

Would your current position in the tourney ie 15 left, 5 get paid, currently top 3 or 4 affect your decision and why? or do you just play the hand for what it is?

[Longy]

Can he not have AQ here and still bet this the same way ?

Personally I don't mind the flat pre., but I would shove after his turn bet.

Stack sizes aren't good for this, his turn bet is most likely to be all in. Pot = 4800 by the turn and nero duck has 3965 back. Which is one of the reasons shoving the flop is superior and in fact shoving or folding pre is even better.

Would your current position in the tourney ie 15 left, 5 get paid, currently top 3 or 4 affect your decision and why? or do you just play the hand for what it is?

If we were on the bubble it might affect my decision making process, but that is only cos the maths gets really skewed in those spots. Where busting is really bad for your overall tournament equity.

In the above situation outlined with 15 left and 5 paid my decision would be unaffected apart from simply maximising the most chips i make on average from the hand. Basically 4bet shoving pre against most players and folding against nits.

[MANTIS01]

There are 15 left, you have A-Ks in a 7-handed game, and you are considering caution. The cautious approach is a strat you should be exploiting in others, not considering using yourself. Just calling the pre flop raise is fudging it really cos the strength of A-K is 10x pre. Going to the flop with A-K in this situation is cautious bad play imo. Thinking your oppo can only have A-A is cautious play. Thinking about folding for less risky alternatives is cautious play. Small ball to the money is a cautious strat. There is very little to think playing cautiously would be a good idea here. Is it ever a good idea? Running into Aces when running good in a tournament only adds weight to your thoughts of caution. But that is the work of the devil which seeks to tempt you from the righteous path.