What do you do, & why?

[tikay]

sorry, just to put this in context. there are 5 left. the average is 40bb. Shover has 8bb. Karl is calling with a wide range of hands id imagine against a desperate shortstack with a healthy stack and understands ranges for open shoving 5 handed. Some people are getting a bit carried away imo. Still, vwp karl, looks like his reasoning was basically- my opponents are not good enough to make a huge move on me here, so i can get away with a call. I bet if the table makeup was more aggro he would say he would iso. If ur playing an mtt, u play it to win, regardless of the money at stake surely (i mean aslong as ur comfortable and the moneys not lifechanging)?
please comment karl.

Oh, believe me, he WAS playing to win. If I suggested otherwise (& I don't believe I did) I apologise.

[easypickings]

sorry, just to put this in context. there are 5 left. the average is 40bb. Shover has 8bb. Karl is calling with a wide range of hands id imagine against a desperate shortstack with a healthy stack and understands ranges for open shoving 5 handed. Some people are getting a bit carried away imo. Still, vwp karl, looks like his reasoning was basically- my opponents are not good enough to make a huge move on me here, so i can get away with a call. I bet if the table makeup was more aggro he would say he would iso. If ur playing an mtt, u play it to win, regardless of the money at stake surely (i mean aslong as ur comfortable and the moneys not lifechanging)?
please comment karl.

I agree with the circumstances, but I think the calling range second to speak is still pretty tight.

Do you think it's right to re-shove nines in the seat of Karl's opponent?  I think you would make a good pass with nines.

Are you going to be around in Walsall mate? Will be good to see you, we're heading out into town on Saturday if you're around.

[kukushkin88]

I really think call to call is the optimal line here, it goes without saying that we have to forget his opponent had KK this time (although karl as Alex says obv makes a good opponent specific play in this instance). Calling to fold is so exploitable for the reasons G2L and Alex have alluded to, his opponents can shove behind with hands that we dominate legitimately believing they are ahead, assigning Karl a similar range to what James did.

If we call to call we get our chips in against better hands that are still to act some of the time and worse hands some of the time, if we shove we only we only get our chips in against better hands. The argument against this is perhaps that our opponents still to act appear to have no fold equity, an interesting element of the hand given how it played out.

[tikay]

I have PM'd a link to this thread to Karl, asking him if he would care to comment, & I'll see him tonight & ask him personally. I hope he agrees - I thought it was a pretty interesting Hand, & thread.

Thanks for a great deal of interesting feedback.

I see a lot of these hands in the course of attending/watching/commentating ME Finals at all Levls - Big Buck Buy-in, APAT, Sky, Fun Events, etc, & I'll try & Post a few more as they arise.

[tikay]

Oops, Karl is on thread.

What's the under/over on how many faccts I got wrong?

Time to make myself scarce.

[tikay]

Here is what Karl said on the excellent & always honest Hit Squad Blog......

Down to 5 handed, the short stack pushed utg for 105k at 8k 16k 1k and I called in the next seat with JJ. My total stack at this point was around 420k. John Eames then overshoved for an additional 200k which was surprising as not only had he been playing quite snug but in this kind of situation everyone else usually gets out of the way fairly quickly. There was about 350k in the pot and it was 200k to call, leaving me 100k behind if I called and lost. If he showed me AK I'd be making a terrible laydown but I decided fold was best in this spot after weighing everything up, and his Kings held propelling him into second and leaving me 4/4 but still with chips to play with.

The full entry can be seen here.....

http://www.pokerhitsquad.com/

[Dry em]

Bear with me as this is far too early in the morning to be thinking too hard...

My thinking is very much similar to Stu's, mixed in with the specific dynamics of the situation that only those playing the table would know. Blinds are 800/1600/1000 and shorty shoves utg for 105k. I have 440k (ish) and have all but the monster stack (in the big blind) covered by about 100k. The standard opening raise at this level has been between 35k-45k

The two points which I considered before deciding call was the right play was

(1) The amount of the raise is significant enough to ensure that by calling, I don't price anyone else in

(2) 5 handed on a final table, most players (and for most read specifically all the one on this table, and most live players who will be playing these events) are all desperate  for someone to get eliminated. Stacks were quite closely bunched and no one, apart from the monster chip leader, was guaranteed a podium finish and the bigger money. I was therefore under no doubt that no one would be looking to squeeze me out of the pot

The third major factor, and this is obviously not going to be picked up on by anyone not there at the time, was the way in which I called. Shorty shoves, I'm next to act, I look at my cards, then look at the dealer and say "I call". I'm not looking round the table at the other stack sizes (I know what they are mentally), I'm not sitting there dwelling for 30 seconds agonising if AJ is a call with all the people still behind me. It's obvious I have a big hand.

AQ and below and 10s and below are, in my mind, a clear and obvious fold for everyone behind me. Sure someone may look at 10s and be agonised but most will fold. Sure AK (for most ppl) has to shove behind me, but remember I still get the option to at least try to get a read on how they react to the situation before anyone does reshove. In this instance, when action got to John there was no dwelling, no agonising it was a simple "i'm all in" said in a tone that is hard for me to describe here but that conveyed the message of how standard it was for him to be reshoving here, not wow my hand is marginal here but I'm going to shove over the top of your "weakness"

When action was back on me I had to call 200k into a 350k pot, which would leave me around 100k back if I called and lost (enough to shove a few times with and have a shot of a comeback). Another thought that went through my mind was that if I fold, I'm going to be more or less 4/4 assuming shorty goes out. If I call and John does have AA/KK and I lose then hopefully John's hand will stand up against shorty and then I'll still be 4/4 albeit with a shoving stack...so maybe I should gamble?

This was by no means an auto fold because given the pot odds I was being offered, if I fold and he shows me AK I'll have made a big mistake but a combination of all of the above lead me to make the laydown, an option I wouldn't even have had if i'd just have auto-shoved in the first place

I'm quite surprised Tikay has made this thread, please don't think that I think this is some super high level concept that only I would ever have thought of - to me it's very standard, but am happy to explain my thought process upon being asked

Incidentally I was duely rewarded for not going broke here by going out 4th anyway. gg.

Edit - oh yes one last point, for anyone who says calling here is "exploitable" is thinking mainly about online play where people are much more likely to make this resqueeze play to create great pot odds for themselves against the shorties range. Online you are also more likely to find yourself short handed with the same couple of players a few times over. There was nothing further from my mind than how my play here could be "exploited" in future events, it's simply not relevant in this context (just my opinion of course)

[tikay]

Thanks Karl.

As to......

I'm quite surprised Tikay has made this thread, please don't think that I think this is some super high level concept that only I would ever have thought of - to me it's very standard,

Yes, "pretty standard" to you - but the tale of the Thread, early on especially,  suggests it is NOT pretty standard to most.

And that's why we all enjoy the PHA so much.

[lazaroonie]

reminds me a bit of those situations when a footballer is taking a penalty and everyone is guessing whether he will hit it to the left or the right, and instead, he just calmly chips it into the middle - when it comes off the penalty taker looks like a genius, but when it doesnt and the goalie just stands there he looks like a chump.

[easypickings]

Really interesting to hear your thoughts Karl. I agree, I think the idea of a meta-game and something being "exploitable" can be way over emphasised in live poker.

Almost no live player is looking to exploit a situation where a player can be knocked out for five to become four. In fact, I think live players are far too passive and far too "honest" in this situation, and often do not make other moves that they should.

There is no need  to worry that in the long run this play will be exploitable. How many times is he going to be in the final five of a tournament with any of these guys? I'm sure his range is pretty tight to call and probably includes AA and KK too, so in the long run he would be more than happy for someone to "exploit" it.

[MANTIS01]

Sometimes when you play chess you sacrifice a piece in order to win the game. How is this situation any different? People are getting caught up in the mentality that to win the game you MUST win each and every individual hand. Calling the shove with the J-J is not a situation that's exploitable imo. The call signifies a strong hand. And as such how can any other player at the table want to expolit the situation that is...strong hand vs shortie? That battle is one that's in the interests of everyone else in the game. Trying to push out a known strong hand to take on the shortie yourself with a hand that you know isn't as strong as the callers is not a good tactic for you imo. You push out the J-J with 8-8 and find yourself vs 10-10. How does this help you win the game? Even if you're flipping with nice pot odds how's that better for you $wise than the shortie being dominated? What's more when the caller has A-A/K-K you ain't really doing the exploiting are you.

[Dubai]

Id say its generally gonna be a bad fold. But its real hard to comment on hands like this without knowing exact gameflow, tempo and dynamics. Some final tables play real different to others so without knowing this then u might as well ask Red or Black

[Longy]

What strikes me about this hand, is how everyone involved in the hand ranges are so tight, lol live poker.

The utg+1 raisor should have virtually atc with his stack, obv in live poker virtually no one has atc but his range must be at least any ace, broadways and pairs. 

So therefore Karl flatting range should be sufficiently wide that someone can profitably move 99+, aq+ behind him, the only real interesting question is that does Karl's flatting range= iso shoving range, as if they are different then that might tighten peoples ranges behind him. Given that he would iso raise hands like aj and 8's.

I like Karl's thoughts on the hand and he is getting better reads on game flow than I can ever have, just strikes me in these situations how fundamentally poor live poker players can be.

[TheChipPrince]

Bear with me as this is far too early in the morning to be thinking too hard...

My thinking is very much similar to Stu's, mixed in with the specific dynamics of the situation that only those playing the table would know. Blinds are 800/1600/1000 and shorty shoves utg for 105k. I have 440k (ish) and have all but the monster stack (in the big blind) covered by about 100k. The standard opening raise at this level has been between 35k-45k

The two points which I considered before deciding call was the right play was

(1) The amount of the raise is significant enough to ensure that by calling, I don't price anyone else in

(2) 5 handed on a final table, most players (and for most read specifically all the one on this table, and most live players who will be playing these events) are all desperate  for someone to get eliminated. Stacks were quite closely bunched and no one, apart from the monster chip leader, was guaranteed a podium finish and the bigger money. I was therefore under no doubt that no one would be looking to squeeze me out of the pot

The third major factor, and this is obviously not going to be picked up on by anyone not there at the time, was the way in which I called. Shorty shoves, I'm next to act, I look at my cards, then look at the dealer and say "I call". I'm not looking round the table at the other stack sizes (I know what they are mentally), I'm not sitting there dwelling for 30 seconds agonising if AJ is a call with all the people still behind me. It's obvious I have a big hand.

AQ and below and 10s and below are, in my mind, a clear and obvious fold for everyone behind me. Sure someone may look at 10s and be agonised but most will fold. Sure AK (for most ppl) has to shove behind me, but remember I still get the option to at least try to get a read on how they react to the situation before anyone does reshove. In this instance, when action got to John there was no dwelling, no agonising it was a simple "i'm all in" said in a tone that is hard for me to describe here but that conveyed the message of how standard it was for him to be reshoving here, not wow my hand is marginal here but I'm going to shove over the top of your "weakness"

When action was back on me I had to call 200k into a 350k pot, which would leave me around 100k back if I called and lost (enough to shove a few times with and have a shot of a comeback). Another thought that went through my mind was that if I fold, I'm going to be more or less 4/4 assuming shorty goes out. If I call and John does have AA/KK and I lose then hopefully John's hand will stand up against shorty and then I'll still be 4/4 albeit with a shoving stack...so maybe I should gamble?

This was by no means an auto fold because given the pot odds I was being offered, if I fold and he shows me AK I'll have made a big mistake but a combination of all of the above lead me to make the laydown, an option I wouldn't even have had if i'd just have auto-shoved in the first place

I'm quite surprised Tikay has made this thread, please don't think that I think this is some super high level concept that only I would ever have thought of - to me it's very standard, but am happy to explain my thought process upon being asked

Incidentally I was duely rewarded for not going broke here by going out 4th anyway. gg.

Edit - oh yes one last point, for anyone who says calling here is "exploitable" is thinking mainly about online play where people are much more likely to make this resqueeze play to create great pot odds for themselves against the shorties range. Online you are also more likely to find yourself short handed with the same couple of players a few times over. There was nothing further from my mind than how my play here could be "exploited" in future events, it's simply not relevant in this context (just my opinion of course)

tl;dr

Cliff notes anyone? 

[MANTIS01]

So therefore Karl flatting range should be sufficiently wide that someone can profitably move 99+, aq+ behind him

Don't agree that Karl's range is wide here. The man knows he's putting himself in the squeeze shop window and he's investing 1/4 of his stack calling this shove...a gamble that messes up his position in the game should he lose. These are the things that determine his range rather than the range of the shover imo. To singularly consider Karl's flatting range is wide cos the shortie's range is wide isn't in itself a good enough single reason to shove all your own chips in with a marginal hand in this situation. People may say the call is exploitable by an aggro player but Karl's flatting range obv includes premium which exploits that aggro mentality in itself. Aggro's gotta hope Karl doesn't have premium...he folds...and then hope his 9-9 wins the flip vs shortie for the move to even work...and when you're sitting there live it's unlikely that risk will seem worthwhile. It may seem worthwhile to internet players when they're at home in their bedrooms but it's a different kettle of fish when you're sitting there in the final 5 after a couple of days play. It doesn't mater that internet players believe the call SHOULD be exploitable cos the fact is it's people who play the game....so it isn't.