What do you do, & why?

[easypickings]

It doesn't mater that internet players believe the call SHOULD be exploitable cos the fact is it's people who play the game....so it isn't.

Completely agree, very well put.

The difference in poker between should and will is massive,  not least "I've put together a very convincing bluff, he should pass here."

[ripple11]

 Similar sort of lay down on Saturday night at The International, Final table......the all in guy obvious had the advantage of not showing, but said he had AK.

From the blog:

Tournament Bloggetta
One Pair


Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 36

 Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:36 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Level 16 3000-6000 ante 500

6 players
What a mixed play blind stealing and strangley lots of walks even with 12k in the middle.
2 consectutive hands Saad raises 15k in early postion.
Stefano on his left dwells then flat calls the 15k,
folds round to Ed 80k BB who goes all in.
Saad counts his stack and folds. Stefano re-evalutes the situation and doesnt get to see a flop without risking his tournament life pre-flop.
He folds and shows  JJ

What a lay down 6 handed!
 

[daviebhoy]

If they have a hand that beats us then they're getting them in behind our shove anyway. If we have them dominated then by calling we get their chips some of the time when they shove with hands we dominate like AJ,A10,1010,99, Calling is > than shoving here.

If we are playing to win the tournament (which I think is the point of this thread) then I agree flatting here is the best play. We have a big hand and would like to give ourselves the chance to win more than the 100k currently on offer so why isolate the short stack ? The hands most likely to come along or push are overcards to our J's or under pairs which we are in good shape against.

Folding JJ's at this stage in a tournament for bubble exploitation reasons doesn't sound more profitable than playing them with second biggest chip stack. I would only consider something like that if I was the one with more than half the chips and they were folding every time I pushed all-in.

[Royal Flush]

Bear with me as this is far too early in the morning to be thinking too hard...

My thinking is very much similar to Stu's, mixed in with the specific dynamics of the situation that only those playing the table would know. Blinds are 800/1600/1000 and shorty shoves utg for 105k. I have 440k (ish) and have all but the monster stack (in the big blind) covered by about 100k. The standard opening raise at this level has been between 35k-45k

The two points which I considered before deciding call was the right play was

(1) The amount of the raise is significant enough to ensure that by calling, I don't price anyone else in

(2) 5 handed on a final table, most players (and for most read specifically all the one on this table, and most live players who will be playing these events) are all desperate  for someone to get eliminated. Stacks were quite closely bunched and no one, apart from the monster chip leader, was guaranteed a podium finish and the bigger money. I was therefore under no doubt that no one would be looking to squeeze me out of the pot

The third major factor, and this is obviously not going to be picked up on by anyone not there at the time, was the way in which I called. Shorty shoves, I'm next to act, I look at my cards, then look at the dealer and say "I call". I'm not looking round the table at the other stack sizes (I know what they are mentally), I'm not sitting there dwelling for 30 seconds agonising if AJ is a call with all the people still behind me. It's obvious I have a big hand.

AQ and below and 10s and below are, in my mind, a clear and obvious fold for everyone behind me. Sure someone may look at 10s and be agonised but most will fold. Sure AK (for most ppl) has to shove behind me, but remember I still get the option to at least try to get a read on how they react to the situation before anyone does reshove. In this instance, when action got to John there was no dwelling, no agonising it was a simple "i'm all in" said in a tone that is hard for me to describe here but that conveyed the message of how standard it was for him to be reshoving here, not wow my hand is marginal here but I'm going to shove over the top of your "weakness"

When action was back on me I had to call 200k into a 350k pot, which would leave me around 100k back if I called and lost (enough to shove a few times with and have a shot of a comeback). Another thought that went through my mind was that if I fold, I'm going to be more or less 4/4 assuming shorty goes out. If I call and John does have AA/KK and I lose then hopefully John's hand will stand up against shorty and then I'll still be 4/4 albeit with a shoving stack...so maybe I should gamble?

This was by no means an auto fold because given the pot odds I was being offered, if I fold and he shows me AK I'll have made a big mistake but a combination of all of the above lead me to make the laydown, an option I wouldn't even have had if i'd just have auto-shoved in the first place

I'm quite surprised Tikay has made this thread, please don't think that I think this is some super high level concept that only I would ever have thought of - to me it's very standard, but am happy to explain my thought process upon being asked

Incidentally I was duely rewarded for not going broke here by going out 4th anyway. gg.

Edit - oh yes one last point, for anyone who says calling here is "exploitable" is thinking mainly about online play where people are much more likely to make this resqueeze play to create great pot odds for themselves against the shorties range. Online you are also more likely to find yourself short handed with the same couple of players a few times over. There was nothing further from my mind than how my play here could be "exploited" in future events, it's simply not relevant in this context (just my opinion of course)

I was crying and wondering what had happened to Karl until he posted this, the fact that it was a snap call by him and a snap shove for John makes it just about justifiable to pass because i think even if he has AK he has a mini dwellup.

Without the fact that everything happened to fast this would be horrible imo, he only has to shove TT and we are just burning money!

As for what Karl should be reshoving with vs the UTG jam i would expect 66+ AT+KJ+ something like that.

The only one thing i want to know is has John seen Karl make calls in these spots before with hands like 88 if so then it complicates the matter completely.

[aceman]

If to reshove with JJ is an error, then to do anything but call or fold here with any hand would be an error too. In a vacuum - which the hero suggests it is, ie no metagame factor - then the hero should merely flat call here with any hand he deems to be ahead of the short stack's shoving range. Tkay suggests the short stack could be shoving atc, if we tighten this up a little and we give the short stack top 70% then K9o is 54%.

I'd be curious to know if the hero would have flatted 100% of his range in this spot, would he flat with K9o?

[MANTIS01]

If to reshove with JJ is an error, then to do anything but call or fold here with any hand would be an error too. In a vacuum - which the hero suggests it is, ie no metagame factor - then the hero should merely flat call here with any hand he deems to be ahead of the short stack's shoving range. Tkay suggests the short stack could be shoving atc, if we tighten this up a little and we give the short stack top 70% then K9o is 54%.

I'd be curious to know if the hero would have flatted 100% of his range in this spot, would he flat with K9o?

Not sure I agree. Why does hero want to take on a 54% gamble here...especially considering that little bit of value he wins risks giving the ss the double up he needs to change the game. No I think the call should signifiy to the field he rates his chances as being much better than marginal vs the ss. And that's why the squeeze is unlikely.

[easypickings]

If to reshove with JJ is an error, then to do anything but call or fold here with any hand would be an error too. In a vacuum - which the hero suggests it is, ie no metagame factor - then the hero should merely flat call here with any hand he deems to be ahead of the short stack's shoving range. Tkay suggests the short stack could be shoving atc, if we tighten this up a little and we give the short stack top 70% then K9o is 54%.

I'd be curious to know if the hero would have flatted 100% of his range in this spot, would he flat with K9o?

I think this logic is only right if you are last to act, and know that you will be all-in against the villain. However, three opponents left to act who could themselves shove, and either  cause you to call a lot more off, or to pass and contribute a big dent of your stack to the pot.

[easypickings]

Bear with me as this is far too early in the morning to be thinking too hard...

My thinking is very much similar to Stu's, mixed in with the specific dynamics of the situation that only those playing the table would know. Blinds are 800/1600/1000 and shorty shoves utg for 105k. I have 440k (ish) and have all but the monster stack (in the big blind) covered by about 100k. The standard opening raise at this level has been between 35k-45k

The two points which I considered before deciding call was the right play was

(1) The amount of the raise is significant enough to ensure that by calling, I don't price anyone else in

(2) 5 handed on a final table, most players (and for most read specifically all the one on this table, and most live players who will be playing these events) are all desperate  for someone to get eliminated. Stacks were quite closely bunched and no one, apart from the monster chip leader, was guaranteed a podium finish and the bigger money. I was therefore under no doubt that no one would be looking to squeeze me out of the pot

The third major factor, and this is obviously not going to be picked up on by anyone not there at the time, was the way in which I called. Shorty shoves, I'm next to act, I look at my cards, then look at the dealer and say "I call". I'm not looking round the table at the other stack sizes (I know what they are mentally), I'm not sitting there dwelling for 30 seconds agonising if AJ is a call with all the people still behind me. It's obvious I have a big hand.

AQ and below and 10s and below are, in my mind, a clear and obvious fold for everyone behind me. Sure someone may look at 10s and be agonised but most will fold. Sure AK (for most ppl) has to shove behind me, but remember I still get the option to at least try to get a read on how they react to the situation before anyone does reshove. In this instance, when action got to John there was no dwelling, no agonising it was a simple "i'm all in" said in a tone that is hard for me to describe here but that conveyed the message of how standard it was for him to be reshoving here, not wow my hand is marginal here but I'm going to shove over the top of your "weakness"

When action was back on me I had to call 200k into a 350k pot, which would leave me around 100k back if I called and lost (enough to shove a few times with and have a shot of a comeback). Another thought that went through my mind was that if I fold, I'm going to be more or less 4/4 assuming shorty goes out. If I call and John does have AA/KK and I lose then hopefully John's hand will stand up against shorty and then I'll still be 4/4 albeit with a shoving stack...so maybe I should gamble?

This was by no means an auto fold because given the pot odds I was being offered, if I fold and he shows me AK I'll have made a big mistake but a combination of all of the above lead me to make the laydown, an option I wouldn't even have had if i'd just have auto-shoved in the first place

I'm quite surprised Tikay has made this thread, please don't think that I think this is some super high level concept that only I would ever have thought of - to me it's very standard, but am happy to explain my thought process upon being asked

Incidentally I was duely rewarded for not going broke here by going out 4th anyway. gg.

Edit - oh yes one last point, for anyone who says calling here is "exploitable" is thinking mainly about online play where people are much more likely to make this resqueeze play to create great pot odds for themselves against the shorties range. Online you are also more likely to find yourself short handed with the same couple of players a few times over. There was nothing further from my mind than how my play here could be "exploited" in future events, it's simply not relevant in this context (just my opinion of course)

I was crying and wondering what had happened to Karl until he posted this, the fact that it was a snap call by him and a snap shove for John makes it just about justifiable to pass because i think even if he has AK he has a mini dwellup.

Without the fact that everything happened to fast this would be horrible imo, he only has to shove TT and we are just burning money!

As for what Karl should be reshoving with vs the UTG jam i would expect 66+ AT+KJ+ something like that.

The only one thing i want to know is has John seen Karl make calls in these spots before with hands like 88 if so then it complicates the matter completely.

Flushy, what do you do if you are sitting in the seat next to Karl and you look down at 99? I think you would pass.

[Royal Flush]

Bear with me as this is far too early in the morning to be thinking too hard...

My thinking is very much similar to Stu's, mixed in with the specific dynamics of the situation that only those playing the table would know. Blinds are 800/1600/1000 and shorty shoves utg for 105k. I have 440k (ish) and have all but the monster stack (in the big blind) covered by about 100k. The standard opening raise at this level has been between 35k-45k

The two points which I considered before deciding call was the right play was

(1) The amount of the raise is significant enough to ensure that by calling, I don't price anyone else in

(2) 5 handed on a final table, most players (and for most read specifically all the one on this table, and most live players who will be playing these events) are all desperate  for someone to get eliminated. Stacks were quite closely bunched and no one, apart from the monster chip leader, was guaranteed a podium finish and the bigger money. I was therefore under no doubt that no one would be looking to squeeze me out of the pot

The third major factor, and this is obviously not going to be picked up on by anyone not there at the time, was the way in which I called. Shorty shoves, I'm next to act, I look at my cards, then look at the dealer and say "I call". I'm not looking round the table at the other stack sizes (I know what they are mentally), I'm not sitting there dwelling for 30 seconds agonising if AJ is a call with all the people still behind me. It's obvious I have a big hand.

AQ and below and 10s and below are, in my mind, a clear and obvious fold for everyone behind me. Sure someone may look at 10s and be agonised but most will fold. Sure AK (for most ppl) has to shove behind me, but remember I still get the option to at least try to get a read on how they react to the situation before anyone does reshove. In this instance, when action got to John there was no dwelling, no agonising it was a simple "i'm all in" said in a tone that is hard for me to describe here but that conveyed the message of how standard it was for him to be reshoving here, not wow my hand is marginal here but I'm going to shove over the top of your "weakness"

When action was back on me I had to call 200k into a 350k pot, which would leave me around 100k back if I called and lost (enough to shove a few times with and have a shot of a comeback). Another thought that went through my mind was that if I fold, I'm going to be more or less 4/4 assuming shorty goes out. If I call and John does have AA/KK and I lose then hopefully John's hand will stand up against shorty and then I'll still be 4/4 albeit with a shoving stack...so maybe I should gamble?

This was by no means an auto fold because given the pot odds I was being offered, if I fold and he shows me AK I'll have made a big mistake but a combination of all of the above lead me to make the laydown, an option I wouldn't even have had if i'd just have auto-shoved in the first place

I'm quite surprised Tikay has made this thread, please don't think that I think this is some super high level concept that only I would ever have thought of - to me it's very standard, but am happy to explain my thought process upon being asked

Incidentally I was duely rewarded for not going broke here by going out 4th anyway. gg.

Edit - oh yes one last point, for anyone who says calling here is "exploitable" is thinking mainly about online play where people are much more likely to make this resqueeze play to create great pot odds for themselves against the shorties range. Online you are also more likely to find yourself short handed with the same couple of players a few times over. There was nothing further from my mind than how my play here could be "exploited" in future events, it's simply not relevant in this context (just my opinion of course)

I was crying and wondering what had happened to Karl until he posted this, the fact that it was a snap call by him and a snap shove for John makes it just about justifiable to pass because i think even if he has AK he has a mini dwellup.

Without the fact that everything happened to fast this would be horrible imo, he only has to shove TT and we are just burning money!

As for what Karl should be reshoving with vs the UTG jam i would expect 66+ AT+KJ+ something like that.

The only one thing i want to know is has John seen Karl make calls in these spots before with hands like 88 if so then it complicates the matter completely.

Flushy, what do you do if you are sitting in the seat next to Karl and you look down at 99? I think you would pass.

It depends on the table dynamics and they are hard to know without being there, however if i had seen Karl previously call in these spots to pass to a shove then i would put 1 hand in the air as my chips crossed the line.

[action man]

john eames the KK is defo top 5 uk online players, and he is 100% shoving TT+ AQ+ here imo. I save this decision by jamming to the shove. If im calling it is merely to get it in to further action. I didnt see the hand play out and it is dependant on the table dynamics hugely and the speed at which things happened, but my default line is iso-jam, johne just has AK,TT, enough to make this a bad fold imo. 

[aceman]

I think this logic is only right if you are last to act, and know that you will be all-in against the villain. However, three opponents left to act who could themselves shove, and either  cause you to call a lot more off, or to pass and contribute a big dent of your stack to the pot.

But this then contradicts the logic of smoothing with JJ. The reason the hero did so was because he felt that anyone behind would only go with QQ+ maybe AK. So if call/folding JJ is fine, then surely it holds that call/folding any other hand you deem to be ahead of the short stack is the correct play.

Once again i stress this is in a vacuum, as if the hero did call with K9 in this spot and everyone else folded there is no way that call/folding anything in a similar spot would be profitable for the rest of the tournament.

I used K9o as an example as it is ahead of a 70% shove range - someone suggested the hero might not want to take a small edge at this stage, so let's bump it to KJ - this should also deal with the equity we lose when someone does wake up with QQ+/AK behind.

Does the hero flat KJ?