MTT question

[thetank]

Question for the online MTT men. I play so much STTs that I am pretty warped when it comes to playing live or online MTTs or whatever. Would appreciate any help.


Consider the following scenario.

You are in a comp with about 1,000 runners and there are 300 left.
You have an average stack. ~30BBs
Opposition at your table is typical, a few TAG players, one LAG player, a few passive stations.


Q1. How does cEV contrast with $EV if you were to flip for your stack at this stage?



Q2. If you change the following factors, would that make you more or less inclined to flip for your stack?

a) The opposition at your table is weaker, more stations, and a couple of LAGtards but you are sometimes able to check your big blind and see a flop.

b) The opposition at your table is stronger, full of winning LAG players.

c) You are deeper, still have an average stack but it is ~60BBs. The structure is slower.

d) You are shallower, still have an average stack but it is ~15BBs. The structure is faster.

e) There are 20 players left instead of 300.

f) It's a satellite where top 10 get a seat and 11th gets change.

g) It's a satellite where top 1 gets a seats only.

h) There are two monster stacks at your table.

i) Your table is full of short stacks.


Q3. What other important factors not mentioned above would you consider when weighing up what odds you need to stick your stack in the middle?



Feel free to quantify things! (ie, saying that both f and g will make you more inclined to flip, but g will make you want to flip more than f)
Some of the above might be quite obvious (ie, stronger opposition = more inclined to flip, deep in a slow structured comp = less inclined to flip) but I'm interested in how this sort of stuff is weighted against each other, how it interrelates.

tyvm for any help.

[thetank]

cliff notes : How do you play poker?

[Longy]

Lol me replying really is the blind leading the blind.

From what i understand just make cEV decisions all the way through till bubble time and then like stt's stacks matter. Where you can exploit the smaller stacks who play far too tight.

I have started playing mtt turbo sngs and they are fun cos you can shove so much wider and everyone plays so tight. With less than 15bb just go into push/fold, just push wider than in stts.

[Royal Flush]

This is good, going to try and answer this when i am next at a loose end.

[TheChipPrince]

This is good, going to try and answer this when i am next at a loose end.

Look forward to that...   

[Eck]

FFS Thomas you have went a bit far there no?

To answer all your Questions if they look purrty stick em in...cEV lol

[thetank]

lol, cheers Eck

[Royal Flush]

So tilting i spent over an hour writing a reply to this and somehow managed to delete it


TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILT

[ACE2M]

just couldn't be arsed, sorry thomas.

[totalise]

i used to be good @ MTTs, now I consider myself pretty shite, so I'll give my answers, and hopefully the ballas will corect me.

Q1. How does cEV contrast with $EV if you were to flip for your stack at this stage?

Ev is Ev. If your proclivaty is that you can generate a good stack with deeper chips vs the field, then it might well be the right play to take a spin that has a negative chipEV. IF your Q is purely to do with $ vs Cev, then yes, the closer it gets to the money, the more you should worry about $ev vs Cev. ICM in its guises requires equal skill though, and most people dont have equal skill vs good players.

Q2. If you change the following factors, would that make you more or less inclined to flip for your stack?

a) The opposition at your table is weaker, more stations, and a couple of LAGtards but you are sometimes able to check your big blind and see a flop.

it depends on the stack distribution to an extent. Its imprortant to try and generate a good stack without risk, but its also great to generate a massive stack with a bit of risk.  If the fish are to my left, Id flip it up, and if the lags are to my right, id flip it up. I'd like a good stack to exploit either of those situations.



b) The opposition at your table is stronger, full of winning LAG players.

this one seems simple, they are better then you, so u cant expect to do well against them. You cant expect to have an edge here, so flip it, hoope you win, and try to exploit the bigger stack against worse players when the table changes.


c) You are deeper, still have an average stack but it is ~60BBs. The structure is slower.

Depends on the table dynamics. ITs hard to emphasise how much dynamics matter in MTT's. less

d) You are shallower, still have an average stack but it is ~15BBs. The structure is faster.

Id always flip for stacks @ 15bbs. It doesn't matter how good ur opponents are. When you have a table full of 15bb stacks, if one of them gets a 30bb stack, they have a massive edge. No matter the skill (within reason) The leverage is too huge.

e) There are 20 players left instead of 300.

Id prolly not flip here, but if there were a couple of bad deep stacked players at my table, I would flip with a tissue in my hand.


f) It's a satellite where top 10 get a seat and 11th gets change.

300 left? Id just go ahead and play hands for their value. If It was down to 30 and it was a sat, Id change my thinking.



g) It's a satellite where top 1 gets a seats only.



ChipEv equals $ev, so u shouln't turn down pot odds situations, but at the same time, yuo likely should take situations whereby you take the worst of it in the smaller pots, beause people are obsessed with "treying to get hu" in satellites, so that gives you a fat avenue to exploit the shit out of them



h) There are two monster stacks at your table.


this is an interesting one. IF they are both crap, you should flip it up to exploit them with a deeper stack, and if they are bettr than you, you should likely flip it anyways and then use ur stack to fade them. IT depends on the position of the good players. if they are your buttons to your blinds, id be more inclinded to gamble. Also it depends on the blind structure and how quickly it is that the table might change.


i) Your table is full of short stacks.

flip the maggots all the time. You cant do anything else.


Q3. What other important factors not mentioned above would you consider when weighing up what odds you need to stick your stack in the middle?

most of them you covered in ur Q's very adequately



As i said, i dont consider myself a good MTT player anymore.. so any corrections to my thinking would be well appreciated!

[Amatay]

just couldn't be arsed, sorry thomas.

This

Great question thou, would be interested on other people reponses

[ACE2M]

i used to be good @ MTTs, now I consider myself pretty shite, so I'll give my answers, and hopefully the ballas will corect me.

Q1. How does cEV contrast with $EV if you were to flip for your stack at this stage?

Ev is Ev. If your proclivaty is that you can generate a good stack with deeper chips vs the field, then it might well be the right play to take a spin that has a negative chipEV. IF your Q is purely to do with $ vs Cev, then yes, the closer it gets to the money, the more you should worry about $ev vs Cev. ICM in its guises requires equal skill though, and most people dont have equal skill vs good players.

Q2. If you change the following factors, would that make you more or less inclined to flip for your stack?

a) The opposition at your table is weaker, more stations, and a couple of LAGtards but you are sometimes able to check your big blind and see a flop.

it depends on the stack distribution to an extent. Its imprortant to try and generate a good stack without risk, but its also great to generate a massive stack with a bit of risk.  If the fish are to my left, Id flip it up, and if the lags are to my right, id flip it up. I'd like a good stack to exploit either of those situations.



b) The opposition at your table is stronger, full of winning LAG players.

this one seems simple, they are better then you, so u cant expect to do well against them. You cant expect to have an edge here, so flip it, hoope you win, and try to exploit the bigger stack against worse players when the table changes.


c) You are deeper, still have an average stack but it is ~60BBs. The structure is slower.

Depends on the table dynamics. ITs hard to emphasise how much dynamics matter in MTT's. less

d) You are shallower, still have an average stack but it is ~15BBs. The structure is faster.

Id always flip for stacks @ 15bbs. It doesn't matter how good ur opponents are. When you have a table full of 15bb stacks, if one of them gets a 30bb stack, they have a massive edge. No matter the skill (within reason) The leverage is too huge.

e) There are 20 players left instead of 300.

Id prolly not flip here, but if there were a couple of bad deep stacked players at my table, I would flip with a tissue in my hand.


f) It's a satellite where top 10 get a seat and 11th gets change.

300 left? Id just go ahead and play hands for their value. If It was down to 30 and it was a sat, Id change my thinking.



g) It's a satellite where top 1 gets a seats only.



ChipEv equals $ev, so u shouln't turn down pot odds situations, but at the same time, yuo likely should take situations whereby you take the worst of it in the smaller pots, beause people are obsessed with "treying to get hu" in satellites, so that gives you a fat avenue to exploit the shit out of them



h) There are two monster stacks at your table.


this is an interesting one. IF they are both crap, you should flip it up to exploit them with a deeper stack, and if they are bettr than you, you should likely flip it anyways and then use ur stack to fade them. IT depends on the position of the good players. if they are your buttons to your blinds, id be more inclinded to gamble. Also it depends on the blind structure and how quickly it is that the table might change.


i) Your table is full of short stacks.

flip the maggots all the time. You cant do anything else.


Q3. What other important factors not mentioned above would you consider when weighing up what odds you need to stick your stack in the middle?

most of them you covered in ur Q's very adequately



As i said, i dont consider myself a good MTT player anymore.. so any corrections to my thinking would be well appreciated!

your the still the man imo mate, good work. never thanked you for previous help, thankyou.

[ ] i'm not drunk

• i still meant the post, just listening to angie by the stones, your beautiful, save me kev please, last time i drank and posted you cleared it up for me, thanks inadvance.

[thetank]

Brilliant, thankyou for taking the time there totalise.

So tilting i spent over an hour writing a reply to this and somehow managed to delete it


TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILT

ugh

[TheChipPrince]

This is good, going to try and answer this when i am next at a loose end.

 

[Sack it off]

a) The opposition at your table is weaker, more stations, and a couple of LAGtards but you are sometimes able to check your big blind and see a flop.

I had a situation like this last night, we are in the money and I am UTG+1. I have 30BBs and I am 5th out out of 30, we are deep in the money as there were 1000+ runners and 150 paid.

I felt I had the table dominated, I was able to easily increase my stack playing small low risk poker.

The utg min raised, he was the only player on the table who had me covered, however I feel this is a strong min raise, I have AKo, I chose to flat call the min raise simply to hit an A or K as I felt a reraise may induce a shove from such hands as QQ JJ TT and chase away all of the hands I get paid from such as KQ or AQ.

Does anyone think I should have played this differently

What do I do if I reraise and he shoves? I'm almost pot commited to call

On a stronger table I will probably be happy to flip as I feel my stack is important however it was a $5 rebuy $12k gtd so the field wasnt so strong.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?