What do we do now - & why?

[George2Loose]

I usually bet out around half the pot here but I don't mind the check either.

If it's checked round as long as we see a none diamond (which statistically we should) our lead out then looks far more like a steal attempt and much more likely to induce a raise.

Matt, what are you putting Marcus on here?

For Marcus to limp UTG. Assuming the tabke has been reasonably aggro as they usually are:-

AA or KK with the diamond. Possibly QQ.

If he has AA or KK without the diamong I expect him to bet out more.

lol at this being Marcus's range for limping

He limps with everything and does not fold easily! Believe me- I keep trying to bluff him for some stupid reason lol

[MANTIS01]

checkraise is not a gr8 plan for u gramps. you are basically saying i have 2p+ as you are not active enough (usually) to have a wider range imo. just call and see what happens on the turn.

Doesn't Tikay have a problem with both options as any decent player will realise his range for either check-raising or leading out here from the sb into 6 limpers is prob 2p/sets&flushes - maybe at worst something like  ?

I don't think a pig farmer, a random scandie, and someone in brown shoes is going to put an unknown on min 2-pair in the 2nd level just because he leads out. Generally leading out is deemed as weakness to unknowns...weaker than the c-raise at any rate.

I don't like c-calling the flop in this spot cos the turn action is usually difficult to generate and checking again gives a potentially free card to bigger diamond draws.

[mondatoo]

checkraise is not a gr8 plan for u gramps. you are basically saying i have 2p+ as you are not active enough (usually) to have a wider range imo. just call and see what happens on the turn.

Doesn't Tikay have a problem with both options as any decent player will realise his range for either check-raising or leading out here from the sb into 6 limpers is prob 2p/sets&flushes - maybe at worst something like  ?

I don't think a pig farmer, a random scandie, and someone in brown shoes is going to put an unknown on min 2-pair in the 2nd level just because he leads out. Generally leading out is deemed as weakness to unknowns...weaker than the c-raise at any rate.

I don't like c-calling the flop in this spot cos the turn action is usually difficult to generate and checking again gives a potentially free card to bigger diamond draws.

I wear brown shoes 

[TightEnd]

and its a sophisticated pig farmer.

[EvilPie]

I usually bet out around half the pot here but I don't mind the check either.

If it's checked round as long as we see a none diamond (which statistically we should) our lead out then looks far more like a steal attempt and much more likely to induce a raise.

Matt, what are you putting Marcus on here?

For Marcus to limp UTG. Assuming the tabke has been reasonably aggro as they usually are:-

AA or KK with the diamond. Possibly QQ.

If he has AA or KK without the diamong I expect him to bet out more.

lol at this being Marcus's range for limping

He limps with everything and does not fold easily! Believe me- I keep trying to bluff him for some stupid reason lol

I'm not saying that this is his limping range.

I'm saying that in this case where he's limped utg, there's 7 in the pot and he's lead out for 400 with 6 to act behind him I suspect this kind of range.

If he checks here I suspect his range to be atc. However he hasn't so I don't.

[Longy]

Well if his limping range is pretty wide, there are all kinds of hands that would lead here. Qx, 2pr, big diamonds, set and made flushes.

[tikay]

Did i miss the flop action?

We got as far as Marcus betting about half the pot on the Flop, the rest passed, then it got back to me.

What to do, why, & what Marcus might have were the next question.

I'd quite like Flushy's reply before taking it to it's conclusion, & before I explain why I Posted the hand.

[mondatoo]

Did i miss the flop action?

We got as far as Marcus betting about half the pot on the Flop, the rest passed, then it got back to me.

What to do, why, & what Marcus might have were the next question.

I'd quite like Flushy's reply before taking it to it's conclusion, & before I explain why I Posted the hand.

Pretty sure you can give the conclusion and he'll still give same reply... ... so give us the blidey conclusion,please 

[tikay]

Did i miss the flop action?

We got as far as Marcus betting about half the pot on the Flop, the rest passed, then it got back to me.

What to do, why, & what Marcus might have were the next question.

I'd quite like Flushy's reply before taking it to it's conclusion, & before I explain why I Posted the hand.

Pretty sure you can give the conclusion and he'll still give same reply... ... so give us the blidey conclusion,please 

Oh, he'll say I mangled it. And he'd prob be right.

But there's a supplementary, which is gonna cause some heat. And we will NOT agree on that, for sure.

[mondatoo]

Did i miss the flop action?

We got as far as Marcus betting about half the pot on the Flop, the rest passed, then it got back to me.

What to do, why, & what Marcus might have were the next question.

I'd quite like Flushy's reply before taking it to it's conclusion, & before I explain why I Posted the hand.

Pretty sure you can give the conclusion and he'll still give same reply... ... so give us the blidey conclusion,please 

Oh, he'll say I mangled it. And he'd prob be right.

But there's a supplementary, which is gonna cause some heat. And we will NOT agree on that, for sure.

Err you've lost me here but ok.Patience is a virtue and all that

[needa]

I think UTG probably has pair and a big diamond... can he be limping UTG with   or     ?? i would of thought this is more likely at an aggro table where he is getting a rase behind a good % of the time... but   Q x have to be in his range here.. but a set is a HUGE % of his range. If, as you say, the 'pig farmer' is playing every pot, then its conceivable that he has continued in the pot with any piece, and im never too worried about him. If i am in your spot, i am raising nearly all the time i think. It does unfortunately turn your hand face up as 2 pair or (and probably) better... But, if you flat call here and it comes a blank (non diamond etc), then what will be your plan?? if you check and it gets checked around your giving free cards vs 2 players. Calling the flop and leading the turn might be ok though, but i know im raising most of the time here.
i am raising (fairly big) and IF UTG has flopped a bigger flush GG.. but i think he can definately put it in with worse here (sets, AA w/d etc etc)... and you never know, maybe the pig man stacks off  with top pair, or bare diamond.

[tikay]

I think UTG probably has pair and a big diamond... can he be limping UTG with   or     ?? i would of thought this is more likely at an aggro table where he is getting a rase behind a good % of the time... but   Q x have to be in his range here.. but a set is a HUGE % of his range. If, as you say, the 'pig farmer' is playing every pot, then its conceivable that he has continued in the pot with any piece, and im never too worried about him. If i am in your spot, i am raising nearly all the time i think. It does unfortunately turn your hand face up as 2 pair or (and probably) better... But, if you flat call here and it comes a blank (non diamond etc), then what will be your plan?? if you check and it gets checked around your giving free cards vs 2 players. Calling the flop and leading the turn might be ok though, but i know im raising most of the time here.
i am raising (fairly big) and IF UTG has flopped a bigger flush GG.. but i think he can definately put it in with worse here (sets, AA w/d etc etc)... and you never know, maybe the pig man stacks off  with top pair, or bare diamond.

Nice first Post Mr Needa Sir, welcome to blonde.

FWIW, you refer to Pig Farmer as "he", but it's a "she".

She's not really central to the hand.

[needa]

ok i understand that, but while in the hand, obviously you have to take into account she is in the pot... that was the point i was making..
Reading through your opening post again, i noticed you said you was checking the flop with an intention... to check raise the flop big to protect your hand etc...
I would of done exactly that. The action behind isnt sufficient  for me to deviate away from original intention.. I think some people who have posted here have actually under valued the strength of your hand.. I mean its not every limped, multi way pot you flop a flush from the BB with 93. MBN. But on the same note, it is a limped pot, and you obviously may see  .. but if that is the case.. GG UL etc..

[AlexMartin]

I think UTG probably has pair and a big diamond... can he be limping UTG with  or     ?? i would of thought this is more likely at an aggro table where he is getting a rase behind a good % of the time... but  Q x have to be in his range here.. but a set is a HUGE % of his range. If, as you say, the 'pig farmer' is playing every pot, then its conceivable that he has continued in the pot with any piece, and im never too worried about him. If i am in your spot, i am raising nearly all the time i think. It does unfortunately turn your hand face up as 2 pair or (and probably) better... But, if you flat call here and it comes a blank (non diamond etc), then what will be your plan?? if you check and it gets checked around your giving free cards vs 2 players. Calling the flop and leading the turn might be ok though, but i know im raising most of the time here.
i am raising (fairly big) and IF UTG has flopped a bigger flush GG.. but i think he can definately put it in with worse here (sets, AA w/d etc etc)... and you never know, maybe the pig man stacks off  with top pair, or bare diamond.

while this is true and i think fine in a deeperstacked comp with an ambiguous image i dont think its optimal here. Stacks are shallow, raising/donking makes it hard to get value or for out opponent to make a huge mistake. tikays image on the live scene is a big part of this. Imo just call and then let them do something crazy on the turn, like doublebarreling an overpair with no diamond to protect. FWIW we should never be all that concerend about giving free cards here, stacks are so shallow that this pot will be critical, so we should play it to maximise value not to protect our stack.

[needa]

yeh seeing a safe turn is good advice also... checking turn, hoping UTG will bet / call off with an over pair (with or without diamond)..
I think especially with the stacks so shallow i am rasing big, making UTG commit stack on flop though...
Nice point about image though.. played with mr TK for like an hour at GUKPT Brighton... pretty new to circuit!