should this of worked?

[$muszlesz$]

willie tann had 30k-40k......player in cut off had 20k and not sure of the player on the buttons stack...does this help

[jakally]

ok thanks for ur opinion...so saying some sort of hand wot range would u be puttin him on plz?

Better question is, what is the percentage chance of getting it through.
Given the odds you are giving them, unless they put you on a premium only, then they are correct to call 100% of the time.

You have just about enough to get one player to fold, but not to get it through 3 of them.

[MANTIS01]

palyin a live £100 fo at the g luton on sunday .....


blinds are 400/800 and i have just moved to a new table 27 players left with average stack of around 17k.....2nd hand and im in the big blind i have about 13k...Willie Tann raises my big blind and im thinkin he is raising light i havent looked at my cards yet but ive made my mind up that he is raisin light and expects me to fold because he will think i know he is a good player...so im shovin any 2 here for defo.......right he is in the hi jack and the cut off and button flat call the 2300 the small blind passes...so there is 7750 in the middle now and with my 1500 it now makes it 9250...........so i look down at  and shove for a extra 10k...........as i thought Willie Tann passes and i expect the other 2 to pass as i dont think they have a good enough hand to call 10k as i think they would have re raised willies raise.....anyway the player in the cutoff calls after about 45seconds of thinkin and the button passes......now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with....................i will tell u wot he called with after some replies......i was definatly expectin them to all pass and how often should thid of worked ?   

Buddy. You have just moved to a new table. After 2 hands a player raises and you insta-decide he is raising your bb light. You believe you know what the raiser's range is and what he thinks you are thinking having sat down like 2 secs ago. From this insta-information you decide to shove before the other 2 actually call. When they do call you say you definitely expect them to pass as well when you shove. Why do you expect that? They could both be calling stations. You don't know. In reality you are making a lot of assumptions when you're actually completely in the dark with regard to the potential success of this move. Next time i'd take a bit of time to assess your oppos before you steam in with an atc squeeze thinking you know what gwon at this new table.

[LeedsRhodesy]

palyin a live £100 fo at the g luton on sunday .....


blinds are 400/800 and i have just moved to a new table 27 players left with average stack of around 17k.....2nd hand and im in the big blind i have about 13k...Willie Tann raises my big blind and im thinkin he is raising light i havent looked at my cards yet but ive made my mind up that he is raisin light and expects me to fold because he will think i know he is a good player...so im shovin any 2 here for defo.......right he is in the hi jack and the cut off and button flat call the 2300 the small blind passes...so there is 7750 in the middle now and with my 1500 it now makes it 9250...........so i look down at  and shove for a extra 10k...........as i thought Willie Tann passes and i expect the other 2 to pass as i dont think they have a good enough hand to call 10k as i think they would have re raised willies raise.....anyway the player in the cutoff calls after about 45seconds of thinkin and the button passes......now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with....................i will tell u wot he called with after some replies......i was definatly expectin them to all pass and how often should thid of worked ?   

he calls with A10/99/88/AJ  all hands i would flat call with to see a flop

[MANTIS01]

now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with

So that said how can we (and you) come up with a calling range for a complete unknown? What you're asking really is what is the correct range of hands he can call with. But that's you assuming this guy is going to play correctly. And why would you think he is going to play correctly? So until we know better we must assume his calling range is 100% of hands he called the initial raise with. And actually, considering you don't have any kind of tight image to speak of his correct calling range is prob 100% of those hands anyway.

[Simon Galloway]

As usual Mantis beats me to it.  I will add a few things, seeing as I have played thousands of tournys at Luton, that might be relevant.

First up, amplifying Mantis' point about your pre-conceived squeeze.  You made your mind up that you were happy to put your chips in light with Willie, but you didn't stop to think if having 2 extra callers in changed the hand dynamics at all.  It now looks far more like a squeeze than it did heads up where you could have received more credit for playing your hand strength than the situation.

Now let's take a look at what villain mioght have been thinking.  Again, having had the misfortune to listen to many hand disections at the tables, these thoughts can and do take place.  So trying to assign hand ranges and FPS is wasted when players (on here) make the mistake that villain will follow a similar thought process.  They have already been labeled as bad, so DAI, and don't make plays based on what a HUD is suggesting - to me that is re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic.  Villain could be thinking:

a) I didn't come out tonight to pass.

b) I have work in the morning, let's gamble, early bed or final table ftw.

c) here's a spite call.  You raised my blind last week.

d) I was gonna pass, but now everyone else has passed, I can't let him have it.

e) It is 100% a squeeze.  He can never ever have a genuine hand here.

f) I know I'm behind but...#

g) I have put "some" chips in the pot, therefore I am committed.  

h) I have him covered so I am still "in" if I lose this.

I could carry on.  This isn't me bashing the Luton players ~ there are good and bad players in every domain.  I am just saying that to find the best play you have to look at the hand from their POV.  Sometimes a situation is crying out for a play.  But if you know that 100% the donk can't pass then it makes it a bad play to execute.

[daviebhoy]

Any small pair, any ace, TJ and above is the right answer

+1

[LeedsRhodesy]

As usual Mantis beats me to it.  I will add a few things, seeing as I have played thousands of tournys at Luton, that might be relevant.

First up, amplifying Mantis' point about your pre-conceived squeeze.  You made your mind up that you were happy to put your chips in light with Willie, but you didn't stop to think if having 2 extra callers in changed the hand dynamics at all.  It now looks far more like a squeeze than it did heads up where you could have received more credit for playing your hand strength than the situation.

Now let's take a look at what villain mioght have been thinking.  Again, having had the misfortune to listen to many hand disections at the tables, these thoughts can and do take place.  So trying to assign hand ranges and FPS is wasted when players (on here) make the mistake that villain will follow a similar thought process.  They have already been labeled as bad, so DAI, and don't make plays based on what a HUD is suggesting - to me that is re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic.  Villain could be thinking:

a) I didn't come out tonight to pass.

b) I have work in the morning, let's gamble, early bed or final table ftw.

c) here's a spite call.  You raised my blind last week.

d) I was gonna pass, but now everyone else has passed, I can't let him have it.

e) It is 100% a squeeze.  He can never ever have a genuine hand here.

f) I know I'm behind but...#

g) I have put "some" chips in the pot, therefore I am committed.  

h) I have him covered so I am still "in" if I lose this.

I could carry on.  This isn't me bashing the Luton players ~ there are good and bad players in every domain.  I am just saying that to find the best play you have to look at the hand from their POV.  Sometimes a situation is crying out for a play.  But if you know that 100% the donk can't pass then it makes it a bad play to execute.



hahahaha love it!!!!

[outragous76]

Given what SG has said, and typical type of play i would have him on............

66-TT
AJ-AK + ATs
all suited connectors 78-kq

Basically you can determine from the above that he prob has a very wide range for you to merrily shove any flop (which I presume is you intention)

I would only shove

1. A board which connects nicely with your hand (any 2 spades, top pair open ended, 2 pair etc)
2. a rainbow single broadway card board (like 2 6 Q) and hope he didnt have the Q
3. Any A on board is bad as it falls too much into his range so this has you folding even if he checks to you

Your options here are limited - pray for the miracle flop

If you want me to guess his hand - i would plump for the middle of his range  - so 99 or KQ suited

[LeedsRhodesy]

when is he going to tell us this hand???

[noble1]

i think by now after all the replies , you know you made a questionable play .. most opponents know if they offered 2to1 pot odds that there calling range can be quite wide..You ask what his hand could be and as replied so far it could be anything 
What is correct to call even if villain puts you on a range like 99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo then he'd be ok calling with 66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo to be ''mathematically correct'' if as simon says in points A to H then i would not be surprised to see an even wider range...
If i was going to steal like in your situation then my broad ish rule is that my stack size is at least 7x the size of the raise so against 1 opponent [willie] then even i'd be wary of trying to steal with 13k and with the 2 extra callers i would not attempt it...

[GreekStein]

if u had 20k i like the play.

Basically this^^

It all comes down to stack size but at the moment someone is likely to look you up. Your play looks like a squeeze too so you really need to be giving them a worse price so they can't call.

Your thinking is good though. Willie is bound to be opening a ton of pots and we don't think cutoff or button are flatting with anything good enough to snap us off in but it's harder to 3-bet now that there's a lot more money in the pot and you will get looked up wider.

[$muszlesz$]

thanks for all the replys guys..................he actually called with kt suited which i was pretty amazed with tbh.........i didnt mind the call as the pot was now for 30k.......after the hand i really felt that if i had 20-25k the player still would have called....anyways the flop came  7 8 t....cant remember the turn and another 8 on the river...he obviously felt that i knew willie was raisin light....

[nirvana]

I think I answered most accurately and most succinctly. That is all :-)

[$muszlesz$]

i still think kt is light here tho.....dont u ?