Bad News-DTD to close?

[outragous76]

OFFICIAL DTD PRESS RELEASE

Dear DTD Employees and Members,


2. Business Rates - these have literally gone through the roof and we are now paying the same rates as a 22,000sqft fully equipped casino. It has been indicated that this re-evaluation was prompted by another casino objecting to the level of rates that we were previously paying.


Cheers, Rob

PS. Last week's DTD Grand Slam overlays will have no effect on our future plans - at least the cash goes directly back into the poker community! I am certain that we will be more successful in the future. This was our first attempt and many venues would be pleased with a 194 field for a £1000k buy-in, especially taking into account the WSOP changed their dates and the market leading £1000 GUKPT took place just a week earlier.

Rob

you appear to be a class apart from your competition - well done

however why not name said casino who dobbed you in to the rating office. We the general public can then choose whether or not we visit said establshments nationwide. It appears that your competition may like dirty tricks, well you neednt stoop that low, but we can all make our own informed choices.

As for the rating issue. I used to work with one of Yorkshire best rating survyors and will gladly forward his details if you wish?  These things can always be challenged!

GL with everything - long may DTD continue!

[owen1923]

Surely there must be some mechanism which allows the classification of all poker tables to be classed in the same way as standard gaming tables to be challenged.

To my small mind I can see the justification of Cash tables being looked upon in the same manner as any other gaming table as there is a constant flow of cash and rake across the table, even though you are not playing against the house.

However tournament tables are exactly that, individual elements of a larger facility, ie the tournament area, and the tournament area is basically a single facility.  So there must be some argument that D T D could be 10 cash tables + 2 tournament areas = 12 gaming tables (Equivalent).

The trouble we have is that the people who write the legislation in this country have no knowledge or interest in the matters they legislate upon.

[Karabiner]

OFFICIAL DTD PRESS RELEASE

Dear DTD Employees and Members,


2. Business Rates - these have literally gone through the roof and we are now paying the same rates as a 22,000sqft fully equipped casino. It has been indicated that this re-evaluation was prompted by another casino objecting to the level of rates that we were previously paying.


Cheers, Rob

PS. Last week's DTD Grand Slam overlays will have no effect on our future plans - at least the cash goes directly back into the poker community! I am certain that we will be more successful in the future. This was our first attempt and many venues would be pleased with a 194 field for a £1000k buy-in, especially taking into account the WSOP changed their dates and the market leading £1000 GUKPT took place just a week earlier.

Rob

you appear to be a class apart from your competition - well done

however why not name said casino who dobbed you in to the rating office. We the general public can then choose whether or not we visit said establshments nationwide. It appears that your competition may like dirty tricks, well you neednt stoop that low, but we can all make our own informed choices.

As for the rating issue. I used to work with one of Yorkshire best rating survyors and will gladly forward his details if you wish?  These things can always be challenged!

GL with everything - long may DTD continue!

1/14 Gala 10 bar.

[ScottMGee]

Surely there must be some mechanism which allows the classification of all poker tables to be classed in the same way as standard gaming tables to be challenged.

To my small mind I can see the justification of Cash tables being looked upon in the same manner as any other gaming table as there is a constant flow of cash and rake across the table, even though you are not playing against the house.

However tournament tables are exactly that, individual elements of a larger facility, ie the tournament area, and the tournament area is basically a single facility.  So there must be some argument that D T D could be 10 cash tables + 2 tournament areas = 12 gaming tables (Equivalent).

The trouble we have is that the people who write the legislation in this country have no knowledge or interest in the matters they legislate upon.

I like that argument a lot.

[Rotty]

Surely there must be some mechanism which allows the classification of all poker tables to be classed in the same way as standard gaming tables to be challenged.

To my small mind I can see the justification of Cash tables being looked upon in the same manner as any other gaming table as there is a constant flow of cash and rake across the table, even though you are not playing against the house.

However tournament tables are exactly that, individual elements of a larger facility, ie the tournament area, and the tournament area is basically a single facility.  So there must be some argument that D T D could be 10 cash tables + 2 tournament areas = 12 gaming tables (Equivalent).

The trouble we have is that the people who write the legislation in this country have no knowledge or interest in the matters they legislate upon.

Agree

Tournament income is not based on the game at all, it is merely a charge paid for the use of facilities and services of staff, the outcome of the game in no way affects the revenue and such is very different from a gaming table

[julian]

OFFICIAL DTD PRESS RELEASE

Dear DTD Employees and Members,

Following on from some recent speculation, rumour and misquotes, I would like to make it absolutely crystal clear that there is no chance of us closing in the near future, or trading unlicensed to avoid paying higher taxes.
In reality, closing the doors would probably never happen, as a number of companies have registered an interest to acquire us, should we ever feel that the "struggle" gets too much!

When we chose to take the legal route by applying for a full casino license, we budgeted for all of the additional costs of operating legally, such as licensing fees, extra security measures and the employment of a dedicated compliance officer. Unfortunately, because we chose this path, we have recently become "caught in the crossfire" between the authorities and the casino industry. Consequently, we now face major tax increases in the form of;


1. VAT - this is now based on our total gaming area, so our 46 poker tables are treated exactly the same as having 46 roulette tables – now that is a super casino! Therefore, VAT is not reclaimable on almost all of our running costs, including any capital expenditure spent on the building.

2. Business Rates - these have literally gone through the roof and we are now paying the same rates as a 22,000sqft fully equipped casino. It has been indicated that this re-evaluation was prompted by another casino objecting to the level of rates that we were previously paying.

3.Gaming Duty - the appropriately nicknamed "Poker Tax" is now payable on all tournament registration fees and cash game charges, unlike a full casino, poker is 90% of our income and this new tax is applied to all of our poker revenues - whether we make a profit or not.

Despite these setbacks, it will still be "business as usual" at DTD; however, Nick and I will be considering the options as we move ahead. We also intend to consult our members and employees for their views at a future date. Thankfully we are in a good financial position, whereby there is no pressure to make any hasty decisions, but the reality is that we must address these significantly increased costs. Furthermore, we must also factor in the probability of more tax increases in the future, as the authorities continue to target the UK casino sector.

Cheers, Rob

PS. Last week's DTD Grand Slam overlays will have no effect on our future plans - at least the cash goes directly back into the poker community! I am certain that we will be more successful in the future. This was our first attempt and many venues would be pleased with a 194 field for a £1000k buy-in, especially taking into account the WSOP changed their dates and the market leading £1000 GUKPT took place just a week earlier.

Happy days!

DTD is simply the best, their attention to detail makes them a class apart from any other Cardroom I've visited, worldwide. Long may it last.

I hope it never changes ownership, because it's the personal care by Rob, Nick, & his Team, that makes it what it is, & nobody could replicate that.

I wish them a successful future, against all odds, starting with this weekend's £300 Deepstack, through the two remaining Grand Slam Legs, & beyond.

well said tony,
it's easy to forget what the scene in the midlands was like before DTD opened it's doors....let's hope they can ride this storm & get to build upon what they've started.

[chrisbruce]

This is such bad news all round - but if I can make a few points

2. VAT - There may be some leeway here for a negotiation or a reduction? I know some VAT specialists who will meet with Rob and look at the situation.

2. Business rates - As i understand it business rates are set directly in relation to business turnover and profit. DTD has no where near the turnover of a city centre casino and as such should be paying far less in rates. As a business you can challenge your rateable
                          value and I would be seeking legal advise as how best to do this. There are many property surveyors who will do this on a contingency basis.

3. Gaming Duty -  I have looked at the HM Revenue & Customs website and quote the following

What is Gaming Duty?
Gaming Duty is a duty based on the gross gaming yield (ggy) for premises where gaming takes place, usually a casino.

Gross gaming yield consists of:

the total value of the stakes, minus players winnings, on games in which the house is the banker
participation charges, or ‘table money’, exclusive of VAT, on games in which the bank is shared by players
In other words, the money gambled minus any winnings paid. The rates of duty are based on a sliding scale from 15% to 50% based on the ggy increments.

top ^What games does it apply to?
It applies only to the following games, or games essentially similar to them:

American Roulette
Baccarat
Big six
Blackjack
Boule
Casino hold ‘em poker
Casino Stud Poker
Chemin de Fer
Chuck-a-Luck
Craps
Crown and Anchor
Faro
Faro Bank
French Roulette
Hazard
Let it ride
Pai gow poker
Poker Dice
Pontoon
Punto Banco
Sic Bo
Super Pan 9
Texas hold ‘em bonus poker
Three Card Poker
Trente et Quarante
Two-way Texas hold ‘em casino poker
Ultimate Texas hold ‘em poker
Vingt-et-un
Wheel of Fortune



Unfortunately note the phrase - or games essentially similar to them:

In my humble opinion this tax is aimed at games like roulette and blackjack and not really meant for taxing poker tournaments etc.  Rob is in the unfortunate position of being the only licensed poker club in the UK and as such has been branded into the casino categary.
I would again be seeking legal / accountancy advice and consider challenging this position.

I am sure Rob will be looking at all his options and I have high hopes of him finding a soloution.

[dik9]

What is Gaming Duty?
Gaming Duty is a duty based on the gross gaming yield (ggy) for premises where gaming takes place, usually a casino.

Gross gaming yield consists of:

the total value of the stakes, minus players winnings, on games in which the house is the banker
participation charges, or ‘table money’, exclusive of VAT, on games in which the bank is shared by players
In other words, the money gambled minus any winnings paid. The rates of duty are based on a sliding scale from 15% to 50% based on the ggy increments.

top ^What games does it apply to?
It applies only to the following games, or games essentially similar to them:

American Roulette
Baccarat
Big six
Blackjack
Boule
Casino hold ‘em poker
Casino Stud Poker
Chemin de Fer
Chuck-a-Luck
Craps
Crown and Anchor
Faro
Faro Bank
French Roulette
Hazard
Let it ride
Pai gow poker
Poker Dice
Pontoon
Punto Banco
Sic Bo
Super Pan 9
Texas hold ‘em bonus poker
Three Card Poker
Trente et Quarante
Two-way Texas hold ‘em casino poker
Ultimate Texas hold ‘em poker
Vingt-et-un
Wheel of Fortune



Unfortunately note the phrase - or games essentially similar to them:

In my humble opinion this tax is aimed at games like roulette and blackjack and not really meant for taxing poker tournaments etc.  Rob is in the unfortunate position of being the only licensed poker club in the UK and as such has been branded into the casino categary.
I would again be seeking legal / accountancy advice and consider challenging this position.

Chris this is last years, the HMRC hasn't updated the site for this year, I made the same mistake.

[ScottMGee]

In the budget 2009 they included equal chance games, i.e. poker, with the GGY - Doh!

[chrisbruce]

ok Thanks

[Graham C]

"2. Business rates - As i understand it business rates are set directly in relation to business turnover and profit."

Buiness rates have nothing to do with business turnover and profit.  It's a 'tax' on the building, irrelevant of the profit that the business in there makes or turns over.  The type of business effect things, but not turnover and profit.  I would have thought it would be on a par with other buildings in the same industrial estate though, obviously pro rata for the size of the premises.   Type of business may effect things, but you shouldn't be charged X amount for the club next door and 10 times that for DTD.

I'd guess Rob knows a bit about rates though through his other businesses.

[robyong]

Thanks for your supportive comments guys, but we have really worked these problems to death at considerable cost with very well qualified and experienced lawyers, surveyors, tax advisors - all with gaming industy  knowledge - there are no loopholes that would let me sleep comfortably at night and to be honest, I don't believe I have another "big fight" in me at my age - I want some quality of life!  

I also said to myself that after the licence saga, I would never put myself through any further court processes/lobbying governments etc etc - although I am up at the notts magistrates court for speeding next week! Things are also different now, with DTD employing 100+ staff, we have a duty to them aswell, where as before, the consequences were just financial and few bruised egos.

I did an interview on Radio Trent today, clearing up the "DTD closing in 2 weeks thing". What I actually said was "I will think about it over the next 2 weeks " and later on in the interview, I said "when any business becomes financially unviable, of course there is a possibility of closing" - somehow the 2 got mixed up!

I hope the press statement clears things up.

Cheers Rob

[tikay]

Please see.....

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=42298.new#new

[tikay]

Wow.

Just had an e-Mail from DTD. It refers to this Sunday's £150 Jobbie, which is the Side-Event to the £300 Deepstack.

The Guarantee is usually £10,000.

Now they have amended that, perhaps in the light of last week's goings ons. To £20,000.

Unbelievable. I must stop eulogising DTD, but jeez, how good is that place?
 
If DTD made Lager.......

[boldie]

20k guaranteed?..I reckon that's cus Rob knows Cos and the Clown are coming..so that's an extra 300 in the kitty already...I've heard guys are flying back from the WSOP just to sit at the same table with these guys.