GUKPT Newcastle main event.

[pleno1]

A friend played this hand, we all spoke about the hand and had different opinions...

Scene : GUKPT Newcastle (main event)

Blinds 100/200
Hero Stack : 24k
Villian Stack : 16.5k

Pre flop:

UTG : fold
UTG+1 : fold
MP1 : fold
MP2 : fold
Hijac : fold
C/O : fold
BO : Raise to 600
SB : fold
HERO: JJ  ?

IMO two different options here, flat or raise. I don't mind either option tbh, no reads on villain yet so raising might cause a bad spot if villain decides to 4bet, however the  +'s are that it will help us define his hand.

Hero decided to flat the villains raise.

Flop

832r

HERO: ?

Betting out here will lose value from hands like AK/AQ/KQ hands that will cbet this hand everytime, will also possibily get hands like 55-10/10 to be cautious and not gain three streets of value. Negatives are that if villain decides to check behind and a q-a comes do we check fold the turn??

Anyway, hero checked and villain bet 1100.

Hero? Raising here could inflate the pot, but flatting here doesn't define villains hand, again there are two ways to play this, what is everybodys opinion?

Hero decided to flat to get three streets of value without inflating the pot. Turn was another 3 and it was the heros turn again here.

IMO betting here starts to ring the alarm bells of the villain, why am I betting out now? If we check what hands that bet the flop that we are beating will bet again? A8/99/10-10 maybe more? Again if we check behind and a q-a peels do we check fold river?


Villain bet out 2400 and perhaps this is the right time to raise and find out exactly where we are, defining our opponents hand and perhaps hopefully taking the pot down right here. Raising here however does eliminate our third street of bluffing value from villain.

Hero calls 2400 and the river brings a offsuit 5. The board now reading
823 3  5


Hero again has a hard decision whether to 1) bet for value   2) check raising  3) check calling, check folding is obv out of question considering how slowly we have played the hand imo.

1) If villain has a hand like 78, 89, a8, maybe even 99 he may cautiously check behind.

2) If we check raise what hands do we exactly think will call our raise? We have shown strength by check calling two streets then raising the river, our hand basically looks like a turn full house the way we have played it

3) Checking with the intention of flat calling a raise means we might miss out on some value that we would of got by leading out.

What is the best line here too?

So alot of decisions to be made in this hand, obviously not one way is the perfect line, but I'd like to hear how everybody else (especially the blue/black belters) would play this hand. I'll post results after so nobody is results orientated.


I know theres lots of different decisions and lots of different options throughout the whole hand, but thoughts would be very welcome?

[MC]

Why didn't we raise preflop? To a button minraise lol. I really don't like flatting.

As played, the river is a check-call. Check-raising is out of the question as we have done nothing to define his hand. Leading out just eliminates his bluffs.

Not a fan of the line taken in this hand, in 4 streets of action, we have done nothing to help us gauge where we are at in the hand...

[GreekStein]

IMO two different options here, flat or raise. I don't mind either option tbh, no reads on villain yet so raising might cause a an awesome spot if we induce villain to 4bet

FYP

[gatso]

Why didn't we raise preflop? To a button minraise lol. I really don't like flatting.

do we know that we didn't? I can't find where it says what we did pf anywhere

obv raise if we didn't

[MC]

Why didn't we raise preflop? To a button minraise lol. I really don't like flatting.

do we know that we didn't? I can't find where it says what we did pf anywhere

It would have been nice if it was clearer, but he refers to the button c-betting the flop which wouldn't apply if we'd raised

[gatso]

It would have been nice if it was clearer, but he refers to the button c-betting the flop which wouldn't apply if we'd raised

surely he can cbet as the original raiser

I was thinking maybe we had raised as otherwise the flop lead is bigger than the pot

clarification please pleno. whole thread is pointless if we don't know preflop action

[MANTIS01]

Can somebody explain how raising pre helps us “define” our hand vs an unknown villain. I take it if we raise and villain folds our hand is defined as the best? Ok, but that’s not a great result. If we raise and unknown villain calls how has this defined our hand? If we raise and villain 4-bets how has this defined our hand? I think we should raise, but because our hand is probably the best and we want to play for more chips than a min raise.

[MC]

surely he can cbet as the original raiser

But this isn't really a c-bet, it's just a bet. This bet is bigger than the pot though if there's no 3bet so maybe there is one...

I'm just saying Mantis, the way we've played the hand all the way to the river we have absolutely no idea what villain has. A raise at some point somewhere along the line might allow us to gain information to proceed with the hand accordingly, rather than check calling every street and hoping we have the best hand?

[MANTIS01]

surely he can cbet as the original raiser

But this isn't really a c-bet, it's just a bet. This bet is bigger than the pot though if there's no 3bet so maybe there is one...

I'm just saying Mantis, the way we've played the hand all the way to the river we have absolutely no idea what villain has. A raise at some point somewhere along the line might allow us to gain information to proceed with the hand accordingly, rather than check calling every street and hoping we have the best hand?

op also said raising pre would help define our hand vs a unknown oppo in a HU pot. I don't understand how it can. You aren't defining your hand, you are defining how villain plays. If you don't know how villain responds to a raise you wont know what his reponse means if you do raise. If you 3-bet pre and villain 4-bets...is he raising cos he has a strong hand or is he raising just cos he raised on the button and you defended? We really don't know. If we are using our chips to get info...e.g. betting to define...the low quality of info we receive back from the unknown gives us very poor value for our money imo. We've put extra chips in and we still have abs no idea what villain has. I think raising just because we have a good hand and villain may well come along with worse is a better mentality to have at this point. We're not flatting a min raise with Jacks is good enough actually.

I also think checking to call through the streets on a safe board is a decent strat. Yes we don't know where we are....but will raising really change that? He will fold worse and jam better lots of the time if we play this aggressively imo. Any, whatever, trying to analyse a hand with zero villain info and no image ourselves is impossible really.

[MC]

I think raising just because we have a good hand and villain may well come along with worse is a better mentality to have at this point. We're not flatting a min raise with Jacks is good enough actually.

I also think checking to call through the streets on a safe board is a decent strat. Yes we don't know where we are....but will raising really change that? He will fold worse and jam better lots of the time if we play this aggressively imo. Any, whatever, trying to analyse a hand with zero villain info and no image ourselves is impossible really.
[/quote]

Good points here^^^

[pleno1]

Sorry guys, sure was sober when I posted this..

Villain raised to 600

Hero flats.

This is from GUKPT Newcastle main event btw.

I'll edit first post too.

[LeKnave]

dont see the need to 3bet pre this early.

those that said it, how are we responding to a 4bet?

think this is pretty standard to call down 3 streets.

[pleno1]

dont see the need to 3bet pre this early.

those that said it, how are we responding to a 4bet?

think this is pretty standard to call down 3 streets.

Pretty much similar response from my friend who was in the hand. We both thought that if we raise any of the 3 streets, all worse hands fold, and all better hands raise. We thought the only other option would be donking the flop looking weak.

[Boba Fett]

I agree with LeKnave.

I dont like donking in on any street, its hardly happy days if he raises us.

[MANTIS01]

dont see the need to 3bet pre this early.

those that said it, how are we responding to a 4bet?

think this is pretty standard to call down 3 streets.

Villain isn't asked to make a mistake if we smooth pre-flop...so he will never play that street anything other than perfectly. If he calls a 3bet with worse (which is very possible), or if he 4bets with worse, we have forced a mistake. I think that is a good enough reason to 3bet vs a wide range. Also you don't let villain go to the flop with the initiative and position. That said, I like the c-call through the streets line and that prob wont happen if we 3bet pre.