PLO Tournament Hand

[Karabiner]

Playing the weekly $200 PLO I have a decent stack of around 19k with average 9k and blinds are 100/200.

UTG limps and all fold to me I have AKK9 1xs and I make it 800.

BB who has c15k calls as does UTG.

Flop comes 9,8,4 rainbow.

BB checks and UTG pots it for 2500 leaving around 1k back.

Our optimum move is ?

[Gamblor21]

I pass, you can't really improve and if your not already beat, you'll be faiding probably pair and draw.

Pairing the 4 is probably your only goo card to hope that it counterifts him.

Plenty of time and better spots for me.

[NoflopsHomer]

Minraise pre at most as you don't want to be blasted out of the pot by AAxx with a good holding.

[Karabiner]

Minraise pre at most as you don't want to be blasted out of the pot by AAxx with a good holding.

Err we've already made our move pre whatever you think of it and we've not been blasted, the question is:

What is our optimum move now ?

[winkie]

fold

[Dubai]

Repop to isolate. 100% standard.

[EvilPie]

UTG can profitably shove here with absolutely any of that board and hope he's up against AAxx / KKxx. His stack's perfect for this move and he should shove even if he's just hit the 4. For this reason I'm not bothered about his hand. If he's got a good run down such as 7 8 9 J etc. surely he pops it pre.

I don't mind a raise here one bit. You're likely ahead of UTG although possibly not a big favourite.

If BB has something big well you've just been unlucky and run into one. If he's got a wrap well just get it in and hope to fade. If he's got top two we've got a fair few outs 4's, K's and A's. If he's got a set well you're just unlucky but you've still got a K for the bink. If he's got AA then he should be having the same decision as you had right now and will hopefully pass.

Have you got a backdoor flush Ralph? That extra couple % could come in useful if we get it horribly wrong.

[Karabiner]

I did have a backdoor flush draw too Matt although I'm not sure how much it influenced my actions to start with.

I decided to raise to 6k hoping to isolate UTG but much to my chagrin BB snapped !

Obviously UTG called for his remaining 1k.

The turn is another 4 which is probably the best card that I could hope for as it gives me a K flush draw as well as counterfeiting any two-pair holdings.

I bet enough to cover BB, 8/9k (who was from Brazil btw) and he insta-calls again.

Obviously he binks a red 7 on the river to make a straight and scoop a 30k pot leaving me with just under 4k.

BB had a decent hand to be fair 9,T,J,Q although I'm not too sure about his play here, especially the allin call on the turn. Was I a little over-aggressive or was it a bit of a cold deck ?

I managed to double up within ten or fifteen minutes to around 7k but was always under pressure and ended up exiting about six places short of the money, although I did have the bitter-sweet satisfaction of noting that the the Brazilian had managed to get rid of his 30k stack about ten spots earlier.

[GreekStein]

I did have a backdoor flush draw too Matt although I'm not sure how much it influenced my actions to start with.

I decided to raise to 6k hoping to isolate UTG but much to my chagrin BB snapped !

Obviously UTG called for his remaining 1k.

The turn is another 4 which is probably the best card that I could hope for as it gives me a K flush draw as well as counterfeiting any two-pair holdings.

I bet enough to cover BB, 8/9k (who was from Brazil btw) and he insta-calls again.

Obviously he binks a red 7 on the river to make a straight and scoop a 30k pot leaving me with just under 4k.

BB had a decent hand to be fair 9,T,J,Q although I'm not too sure about his play here, especially the allin call on the turn. Was I a little over-aggressive or was it a bit of a cold deck ?

I managed to double up within ten or fifteen minutes to around 7k but was always under pressure and ended up exiting about six places short of the money, although I did have the bitter-sweet satisfaction of noting that the the Brazilian had managed to get rid of his 30k stack about ten spots earlier.

The BB should be fistpumping it in on the 894 rainbow. It's like the most jackpot flop ever for his hand. Flatting is horrible.

[EvilPie]

Just look through the hand Ralph knowing what oppo had.

All the mistakes are his.

He flats the flop bet so he's getting 2 to 1 on that call. If he hits I think you get away on the river because it's an uber scare card that hits him so he's not got the implied odds to call especially oop.

He then calls the turn when he's still behind with one card to come so again doesn't get the right odds on his call.

If he gets it in on the flop then it's you who's made the mistake because he's probably about 65% there.

You just got unlucky against a bad oppo.

Out of interest what do you do if he jams your flop raise? That would've been the real decision in this hand and the one where you could've made a mistake.

[Karabiner]

Well I'm pretty sure that i can get away from my hand.

Although I have now worked out(the whole pot was 30k) that the shove would only have been another c7k, so little more than a min raise, and therefore not a formality to fold, but I think I can as my prospects would have now looked pretty bleak, plus I would have still had an above average 11/12k stack.

[riverdave]

Without letting results of the hand influence my thinking i'm of the opinion anything other than a flat call on the flop is a mistake. We are happy to take the UTG on for his 3500 probably winning most of the time and decent equity regardless unless he has flopped a set. I really don't like any raise into the BB because we have no idea about the strength of his hand. Any raise we make is potentially gifting him chips and potentially committing ourselves in horrible shape if he jams the rest in. He will almost always only get it in here with us in bad shape against a set or top two pair/straight draw combo or a dreaded wrap/superwrap.
Flat calling the flop lead is not a weak move and it allows us to gain very close to if not exactly the same info about the strength of the BB's hand. If he flats now he should have a hand that has decent equity agaisnt us so we should be wary of what comes on subsequent streets, we're bascially lookign for Ace, King or pair the 4/9 to put any more money in. If he raises on the flop it's almost certainly a monster that has us equity crushed and we can easily fold without committing too much to the hand. Some very good/very bad players might take your flat as weak and raise with less than a monster but it's not like we crush any hand so i think you just have to say well played if that's what transpires.
Think Dubai's view is far more appropriate to cash PLO where we can reload.
As it played out nothing wrong with your turn play you are going to still be ahead most of the time, his turn call is pretty questionable as you could actually be housed up and he's drawing dead. In fact only reason i wouldn't of jammed with his hand on the flop is if i had you on a set and didn't want to commit on a paired turn. If he could see your hand it's still a call for him.

[RichEO]

I flat call the 2.5k. Then call or bet his last 1k on the turn. If the BB comes in, you are now in a dry side pot situation and it should be easier to play your over pair vs the BB. This saves you from putting in about 12k, which is much more valuable at this stack size than risking it now.

[Karabiner]

Without letting results of the hand influence my thinking i'm of the opinion anything other than a flat call on the flop is a mistake. We are happy to take the UTG on for his 3500 probably winning most of the time and decent equity regardless unless he has flopped a set. I really don't like any raise into the BB because we have no idea about the strength of his hand. Any raise we make is potentially gifting him chips and potentially committing ourselves in horrible shape if he jams the rest in. He will almost always only get it in here with us in bad shape against a set or top two pair/straight draw combo or a dreaded wrap/superwrap.
Flat calling the flop lead is not a weak move and it allows us to gain very close to if not exactly the same info about the strength of the BB's hand. If he flats now he should have a hand that has decent equity agaisnt us so we should be wary of what comes on subsequent streets, we're bascially lookign for Ace, King or pair the 4/9 to put any more money in. If he raises on the flop it's almost certainly a monster that has us equity crushed and we can easily fold without committing too much to the hand. Some very good/very bad players might take your flat as weak and raise with less than a monster but it's not like we crush any hand so i think you just have to say well played if that's what transpires.
Think Dubai's view is far more appropriate to cash PLO where we can reload.
As it played out nothing wrong with your turn play you are going to still be ahead most of the time, his turn call is pretty questionable as you could actually be housed up and he's drawing dead. In fact only reason i wouldn't of jammed with his hand on the flop is if i had you on a set and didn't want to commit on a paired turn. If he could see your hand it's still a call for him.

Some interesting food for thought there Dave.

It's funny but even though I ultimately got unlucky to the river bink I still felt that I had mangled this hand and therefore a good position to win the tourney, in some way, but could not quite figure it out as I really did not give flatting the flop serious consideration as it felt so weak at the time plus I didn't want to price in BB.

Your line makes a lot of sense now in retrospect.

[riverdave]

Without letting results of the hand influence my thinking i'm of the opinion anything other than a flat call on the flop is a mistake. We are happy to take the UTG on for his 3500 probably winning most of the time and decent equity regardless unless he has flopped a set. I really don't like any raise into the BB because we have no idea about the strength of his hand. Any raise we make is potentially gifting him chips and potentially committing ourselves in horrible shape if he jams the rest in. He will almost always only get it in here with us in bad shape against a set or top two pair/straight draw combo or a dreaded wrap/superwrap.
Flat calling the flop lead is not a weak move and it allows us to gain very close to if not exactly the same info about the strength of the BB's hand. If he flats now he should have a hand that has decent equity agaisnt us so we should be wary of what comes on subsequent streets, we're bascially lookign for Ace, King or pair the 4/9 to put any more money in. If he raises on the flop it's almost certainly a monster that has us equity crushed and we can easily fold without committing too much to the hand. Some very good/very bad players might take your flat as weak and raise with less than a monster but it's not like we crush any hand so i think you just have to say well played if that's what transpires.
Think Dubai's view is far more appropriate to cash PLO where we can reload.
As it played out nothing wrong with your turn play you are going to still be ahead most of the time, his turn call is pretty questionable as you could actually be housed up and he's drawing dead. In fact only reason i wouldn't of jammed with his hand on the flop is if i had you on a set and didn't want to commit on a paired turn. If he could see your hand it's still a call for him.

Some interesting food for thought there Dave.

It's funny but even though I ultimately got unlucky to the river bink I still felt that I had mangled this hand and therefore a good position to win the tourney, in some way, but could not quite figure it out as I really did not give flatting the flop serious consideration as it felt so weak at the time plus I didn't want to price in BB.

Your line makes a lot of sense now in retrospect.
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I just feel the raise to isolate is more of a holdem play where it is far harder for the people you want out to have made a hand, you are just so much more likely to get unlucky and run into a hand in PLO and at the end of the day you have 1 pair no draw. I'm actually not worried about pricing him in with a bad draw as you are a favourite to see a blank and be able to get the big bet in when they can't/shouldn't call and your equity is that much better.