Staying Alive

[Ironside]

If i only had 5xBB left I wouldn't raise 3xBB. It's all in straight away or fold.

I go with Ironside here, if I'm sticking 35% or more of my chips in, I may as well stick them all in.

does ironside communicate to you telepathically?

I remember a similiar discussion to this before.

yep no flops is right

basically if you commiting 35% of your chips in a raise the raise should be all and take the decision awayfrom yourself and take the option of the reraise away from your oppo

[totalise]

No opponent will fold on the flop if it's only a further 2XBB because they know whatever (hit or miss) you're chucking it all in so you're gonna get called anyway. If you raised 3XBB pre flop with a drawing hand for example and missed the flop your chucking the rest in (2XBB) with nothing, he may have hit the flop and will knock you out the tourney.

If you push ALL IN with the 5XBB preflop there's a chance of them folding and you can pick up the blinds which is preferable I'd say than to trying to improve on the flop. It's ok I suppose if you've got Aces but otherwise you're risking your tournament life.

not sure why you need to use caps, but anyways

you dont make sense.... on the one hand you are saying that they aren't folding for 2XBB post flop, if they call preflop, but at the same time, you are saying that they will fold for 2X bb more preflop? I mean, which one is it? will they fold for 2XBB or wont they? you cant have it both ways

As a little story, a friend of mine was at the final table of the $500k on stars... and some guy was involved in a 400k pot preflop, and then the minnow jammed his last 46k in the middle, and the big stack folded.. so you cant say no opponent will fold, when opponents clearly will fold. If they are folding this at the final table of a $500k tourney, then they are certainly doing it at the maggot $100 and less buy-in tournies

We could even get into the argument of improving opponent ranges from a meta-game perspective, but i fear that will be lost on this crowd.

[TightEnd]

We could even get into the argument of improving opponent ranges from a meta-game perspective, but i fear that will be lost on this crowd.

Oh go on, try me and my fellow maggots.

You see I was thinking about meta-gaming:


The game of Football is played by two opposing teams over 90 minutes. The meta-game of Football is the season; what goes on in an individual game is far less important, to the team and to the fans, than what transpires over the course of the year. The goal of the game is to score more goals than the opposing team; the goal of the meta-game is to win the league etc.

A game of trading cards played by my kids is played by two opposing players, each with a deck of cards. The meta-game of this activity is played by an entire group of friends who trade cards and spend hours thinking about their decks and how to improve them. The goal of the game is to reduce your opponent's life points to zero; the goal of the meta-game is to really, really impress your friends with what a clever player you are and what great decks you've constructed.

Meta-games, when they work, are compelling. The draw together an entire community of people, far beyond the participants in a single game. They provide a reason to obsess about the game, to think about strategy, to study it. 

In effect thinking about the meta-game means thinking about creating a structure around the game that allows all players of the game, anywhere, to interact with other players.

Of course in those senses BlondePoker is providing a valuable social function in it's ability to allow over 2000 members to meta-game about the particular circumstances they have discovered and theorise to their hearts content as well as provide the opportunity to build friendships and create a culture particular to the site

Glad you recognise that Totalise, even if none of us do. 

 

[yt]

maggot $100 and less buy-in tournies
We could even get into the argument of improving opponent ranges from a meta-game perspective, but i fear that will be lost on this crowd.

It's just as well tightend explained it so eloquently for us maggots then eh
educate dont berate - I'd never heard of a meta-game and don't care who knows that. It's nice that tightend took the time to explain it.

[ifm]

When i played in a festival event at walsall a while back JP Kelly was in the final shortstacked (he won it BTW) and i commented to a couple of chaps that he'd done very well to get there as he was down to the felt the previous day.
One of the fellas said that he had been on his table and had been impressed by the fact that he had refused to put his last few chips in a pot because he knew he was behind.
The point is simple, if you are going to put the rest in regardless of the flop then you are robbing yourself of a chance, likewise putting them all in preflop.

[julian]

i like the JP story,
my take is;
if i have 5bb's it's all going in unless i find AA or KK.
if i have 8bb's i would prob still raise 3bb's with eg KJ and if the SB moved in before me on say a 10,7,3 flop i would pass;
i'd rather get my chips in first before the flop with 2-7 than call all-in with two albeit live cards that have missed the flop

[Robert HM]

Thank you your Tightness for the explaination, you see I'm fick but I hide it by hanging around in a crowd

[snoopy1239]

Is it always correct sticking your chips in pre flop if you have committed yourself pre flop?

e.g. you are a bit shortstacked with 5xbb and you attempt to steal with a 3 x bb raise from the cut off with a ropey hand e.g. K9os . BB is very tight player and medium stacked and they put you all in.

16 players left with money at 10.

Would you always stick the rest in? or could you fold and hope for a better spot knowing you must be in all sorts of trouble against the BB's hand.

Personally i would always stick them in but i saw someone lay this down the other day then he made a come back with a couple of double ups and made the final table. BB had KK btw.

Later against the same BB i try to steal and end up in a very similar situation when i am holding K10 i stick the rest in and fail to outdraw the aces.

Good question. I'll have to mull it over.

But...

At Luton's Xmas Cracker main event last week, Micky Wernick raised from the button with AT for 35k, and then folded to a reraise which left him just under 30k. He then went on to win the comp.

[TightEnd]

great points made about both Mickey and JP....

[yt]

Is it always correct sticking your chips in pre flop if you have committed yourself pre flop?

e.g. you are a bit shortstacked with 5xbb and you attempt to steal with a 3 x bb raise from the cut off with a ropey hand e.g. K9os . BB is very tight player and medium stacked and they put you all in.

16 players left with money at 10.

Would you always stick the rest in? or could you fold and hope for a better spot knowing you must be in all sorts of trouble against the BB's hand.

Personally i would always stick them in but i saw someone lay this down the other day then he made a come back with a couple of double ups and made the final table. BB had KK btw.

Later against the same BB i try to steal and end up in a very similar situation when i am holding K10 i stick the rest in and fail to outdraw the aces.

Good question. I'll have to mull it over.

But...

At Luton's Xmas Cracker main event last week, Micky Wernick raised from the button with AT for 35k, and then folded to a reraise which left him just under 30k. He then went on to win the comp.

but as in the example above did that 30k = 2xBB?
and would micky raise 3xBB if he only had 5xBB? I guess not.

[snoopy1239]

Is it always correct sticking your chips in pre flop if you have committed yourself pre flop?

e.g. you are a bit shortstacked with 5xbb and you attempt to steal with a 3 x bb raise from the cut off with a ropey hand e.g. K9os . BB is very tight player and medium stacked and they put you all in.

16 players left with money at 10.

Would you always stick the rest in? or could you fold and hope for a better spot knowing you must be in all sorts of trouble against the BB's hand.

Personally i would always stick them in but i saw someone lay this down the other day then he made a come back with a couple of double ups and made the final table. BB had KK btw.

Later against the same BB i try to steal and end up in a very similar situation when i am holding K10 i stick the rest in and fail to outdraw the aces.

Good question. I'll have to mull it over.

But...

At Luton's Xmas Cracker main event last week, Micky Wernick raised from the button with AT for 35k, and then folded to a reraise which left him just under 30k. He then went on to win the comp.

but as in the example above did that 30k = 2xBB?
and would micky raise 3xBB if he only had 5xBB? I guess not.

I'm not 100%, but I think I recall that the blinds were 5/10k.

Micky put in 35k, the  ig blind reraised, and Micky folded leaving himslfl with 30k

So, he had 3xBB in the end, and about 7xBB at the start of the hand.

[yt]

the micky example is a strange one though because of the points he was fighting for.
I think we all know what we'd do with 5XBB and a decent hand.

[tikay]

I don't want to add fuel to a fire that appears to have gone out, but, in "catch-up mode" today, I saw this thread.

I'm bound to say, I really don't think anyone should refer to the blondeites in such patronising terms as "lost on this crowd", any more than I like the expression "maggot $100 & less tournies".

"this crowd" includes WSOP Bracelet Winners, WPT & EPT Winners, the creme de le creme of poker, as well as, more importantly, many, many, guys & gals who frequent the $5 & $10 tourneys, because maybe they don't have the game that the big boys have, but they have a passion for poker, & poker people. We also have folks with degrees, & others with no education at all.

Bracelet Winner Brian Wilson engages in banter with ALL of us, as does Dave Colclough, Simon Trumper, Julian Thew, Carlo Citrone, and many, many, others. These guys have forgotten more about poker than most of us ever knew, but they never, EVER, berate us because of our station on the poker ladder, because OFF the table, they are no different to us, & certainly not better.

Tight Ends riposte was elegant & breathtakingly good.

My humble offering is simply this. "this crowd" are diamonds, & I really don't like them referred to in such derogatory terms. as for "maggot tournies", we maggots have had more fun in them than you'll ever know.

It's history now, case closed. But I'd thank you not to refer to the blondeites in such derogatory terms in future. Educate, please, not berate, is my message.

Have a good Christmas, from all of "this crowd".

[snoopy1239]

"this crowd" includes WSOP Bracelet Winners, WPT & EPT Winners, the creme de le creme of poker,

and Ironside.

[EvilSteve]

No opponent will fold on the flop if it's only a further 2XBB because they know whatever (hit or miss) you're chucking it all in so you're gonna get called anyway. If you raised 3XBB pre flop with a drawing hand for example and missed the flop your chucking the rest in (2XBB) with nothing, he may have hit the flop and will knock you out the tourney.

If you push ALL IN with the 5XBB preflop there's a chance of them folding and you can pick up the blinds which is preferable I'd say than to trying to improve on the flop. It's ok I suppose if you've got Aces but otherwise you're risking your tournament life.

not sure why you need to use caps, but anyways

you dont make sense.... on the one hand you are saying that they aren't folding for 2XBB post flop, if they call preflop, but at the same time, you are saying that they will fold for 2X bb more preflop? I mean, which one is it? will they fold for 2XBB or wont they? you cant have it both ways

Yes indeed that's what I'm saying. If it's 5XBB preflop you might look at your hand, think well hey it's not that good I can muck this and wait for another chance to knock the short stack out. 3xBB I'd prob call them with anything but getting above the 3XBB mark changes things!