Playing mediocre hands because of value- Help

[Woodsey]

I know it is good to play certain mediocre hands preflop when there is alot of value in the pot, however I don't understand the exact value that is needed for it to be a correct play with various starting hands.

Here is a couple of theorectical hands I would appreciate your help with:-

We are playing 10/20 NL cash, UTG puts in a standard 3 x BB raise, if we were in lateish position how much would need to be in the pot to make a value call with each of these starting hands.

1. Pocket 4's

2. 78 suited

3. KJ os

4. A7 suited

I sometimes play these hands if there is a couple of calls but I haven't got a clue how to work out the value to make a correct mathematical decision.

Thanks in advance for your help

[Timaloy]

It really depends on what type of hands your opponent has..

Its almost impossible to guess there hole cards so you need to cut it down to as few possibilitys as possible and then make a decision.

If you think he has AA, KK or QQ when he raises 3x the bb under the gun and you have pocket 4's your a 4.5-1 dog so there needs to be $270 in the pot for you to call $60 and it be a correct play but thats not taking into acct the implyed odds. The implyed odds could be huge if you think he is a weak player and wouldnt fold those 3 hands if there where no over cards on the board.  Thats playing strictly mathamaticaly.
If he has AK then you are a fav and a call is correct any time but it leads to though decisions post flop so thats why some ppl tend not to play them.

Theres way to many possibilitys .. heres 5 of the most important preflop odds          -    Hi Pr vs Low Pr - 82% - 18% thats 4.5 to 1 fav.
                                                                                                                           Pr vs 2 Ovr Crds - 55% - 45%
                                                                            (could involve suited connectors) Pr vs 2 Lower Crds - 5 to 1 fav
                                                                                                                           Pr vs Hi/Lo Crds - 5 to 2 fav
                                                                            (could involve suited connectors)  2 Hi Crds vs 2 Low Crds - 5 to 3 fav

[NoflopsHomer]

It depends more who your opponent is than what cards he's actually holding.

[ACE2M]

It depends more who your opponent is than what cards he's actually holding.

i agree, a call will probably mean you will have the best position after the flop and if he reliably puts out a continuation bet you can often scoop a big pot if you hit. Your willingness to have a bet at the flop is also a big factor. If you always fold to a bet when you miss the flop you should really only being playing premium hands.

[WellChief]

A lot depends on the stack size of your opponent making the raise Woodsey, if you both have large stacks then you can call the raise with a wide range of hands as if you hit a huge flop then you have huge implied odds.

Stack size and opponent are more important than the amount of money in the pot when it gets to you as implied odds are so  important in cash games.

[Timaloy]

Wouldnt call a 3x the bb raise in a 10/20 cash game with KJ or A7 suited under most (almost all) circustances.

[ifm]

It's all about implied odds than anything else.
Firstly i think the hands you list are not all the right types of hands, i would not call with KJ or a rag Ace for the simple reason i could be dominated, the whole point of calling with rubbish is if you hit you are way ahead and the other chap doesn't know.
Also you need to know what you want to hit with the cards BEFORE you call, i.e. with 67 you want open ended, 2 pair minimum to continue.
Mathematically speaking pot odds on the call don't really matter though i prefer at laest 3-1 on any call with rubbish.

[Woodsey]

This is good stuff guys keep it coming.

I also personally would not call with A7 or KJ but I have seen so called 'good' players who have called because they were getting good value. I prefer to play pocket pairs and small cards even stuff like 46 and 97 suited and such like if there is enough callers on the basis if I hit and someboby is holding a big pair I will get paid off big time. What do you think of this strategy?

My reasons for asking is I used to play mostly limit holdem which I was a small winner at but found very frustrating, I have recently moved over to no limit and am having to alter my play.

[ACE2M]

This is good stuff guys keep it coming.

I also personally would not call with A7 or KJ but I have seen so called 'good' players who have called because they were getting good value. I prefer to play pocket pairs and small cards even stuff like 46 and 97 suited and such like if there is enough callers on the basis if I hit and someboby is holding a big pair I will get paid off big time. What do you think of this strategy?

My reasons for asking is I used to play mostly limit holdem which I was a small winner at but found very frustrating, I have recently moved over to no limit and am having to alter my play.

This is pretty much how you see people playing all the time now and it is profitable as it is hard to counter. Personally i like to raise these creative players a lot pre flop and make sure they are putting in decent amounts of chips to see the flop, they usually move tables after a while as they can't play their style cheaply which is what makes it profitable.

[thetank]

With pocket 4's or 78s you don't need very much at all in the pot if the stacks are deep. You can call one guy by yourself if you're both working behind decent stacks.

I agree with what other posters said about A7 and JK, no amount of value in the pot would convince me to play these cards in a raised NL pot. The only time I'd welcome them is in tournament play near the 'endgame'.

[AndrewT]

For playing the speculative hands (the 44 and 78s) behind a raise against one player at a NL table, there is the 'five and ten rule' (can't remember whose rule it is).

If the amount to call is under 5% of the amount you could win (the pot plus the rest of his stack, or your stack if he out chips you) then it's an easy call. If it's over 10%, then it's an easy fold. Between 5 and 10 you have to use your judgement as to whether to proceed, taking into account things like how aggressive the player is post-flop, are there any other players who might make it multi-way etc.

At top level NL, the point of calling a raise with KJ or A7 is purely so that you can't be put on a hand - top players will soon work out if you only ever call raises with small pairs and or suited connectors and so will not pay you off when you hit your set or straight/flush.