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Author Topic: Come on England  (Read 39475 times)
Hairydude
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« Reply #420 on: June 28, 2010, 02:19:57 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

I agree with this sentiment and so does sir alex(after brazil beat you guys)- "Ferguson said: ‘I can’t see past Brazil, actually. They are going to be the ones in South Africa. They are going to be hard to beat. You just have to think of the players they can bring in - they are a supplier of great players.

‘Last season, there were 103 Brazilians in the Champions League and only 15 Englishmen. More Scots played in the Champions League last season than English
players. I thought the 11/10 on Brazil to beat England was the bet of the century.


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Josedinho
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« Reply #421 on: June 28, 2010, 02:20:53 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

You are too focused on winning at a lower level and therefore your players don't grow in the same way that players from abroad do. You can win a U-17 tourney, but if you do it with short shighted long haul footie those players won't cut it against national sides when they play full internationals.

The whole "we need more english players in the EPL" thing has been done to death and there is no reason to assume it would improve things.
But if we have the best team at U17 level and they are given more of an opportunity to develop by playing top level games then they are surely more likely to improve. The dutch, spanish, brazilians etc don't suddenly get skilful at 17.
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #422 on: June 28, 2010, 02:22:18 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.



Our starting line up yesterday certainly had more experience than the Germans at playing top class club football.



Really? Only if you class the EPL as No 1, I see it as 2nd equal with the Germans & the Italians.

Germany's squad had 10 players who made the last 16 in the Champions League last season, 7 whose team lost in the final. They'd 8 who made the last 16 in the Europa League, 4 made it to the semi-final.

England's squad had 6 who made the last 16 in the CL - 2 were in the Quarter-final, they'd 3 that made the last 16 of the EL, making it to the semi-final. (Note Arsenal, QT CL & Fulham EL Finalists, had no players in the England squad).

I reckon the top level experience was weighted in favour of Germany.
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Josedinho
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« Reply #423 on: June 28, 2010, 02:27:43 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.

But these players never go on to get games at the top level either. Excuse the ignorance as i don't know which players were in that squad but i imagine most play in Scotland and they must get a handful of games each season where they play a decent level of opposition.
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« Reply #424 on: June 28, 2010, 02:36:14 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.



Our starting line up yesterday certainly had more experience than the Germans at playing top class club football.



Really? Only if you class the EPL as No 1, I see it as 2nd equal with the Germans & the Italians.

Germany's squad had 10 players who made the last 16 in the Champions League last season, 7 whose team lost in the final. They'd 8 who made the last 16 in the Europa League, 4 made it to the semi-final.

England's squad had 6 who made the last 16 in the CL - 2 were in the Quarter-final, they'd 3 that made the last 16 of the EL, making it to the semi-final. (Note Arsenal, QT CL & Fulham EL Finalists, had no players in the England squad).

I reckon the top level experience was weighted in favour of Germany.

Talk about just using last season as an example, to bend the facts towards your arguement.

Playing top flight football in England for one is far better than in Germany. http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2010.html (uefa coefficient for you), Germany clearly a weaker league than England or Spain.

Also by the same arguement over the last 5 years, English teams have clearly progressed further in Europe on a regular basis.





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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #425 on: June 28, 2010, 02:41:33 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.

But these players never go on to get games at the top level either. Excuse the ignorance as i don't know which players were in that squad but i imagine most play in Scotland and they must get a handful of games each season where they play a decent level of opposition.

[/end thread]

There's England's biggest failings right there - ignorance and arrogance.
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EvilPie
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« Reply #426 on: June 28, 2010, 02:42:00 PM »


I agree with this sentiment and so does sir alex(after brazil beat you guys)- "Ferguson said: ‘I can’t see past Brazil, actually. They are going to be the ones in South Africa. They are going to be hard to beat. You just have to think of the players they can bring in - they are a supplier of great players.

Last season, there were 103 Brazilians in the Champions League and only 15 Englishmen. More Scots played in the Champions League last season than English
players. I thought the 11/10 on Brazil to beat England was the bet of the century.


Wow. That's a scary stat and makes things a lot more understandable.

So Brazil can fill every single position on the field with a player who plays there every week and in most cases have a few to choose from.

England can barely scrape half a squad.

I never realised it was quite so bad. Needs some serious looking in to if England want to be a realistic contender.
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #427 on: June 28, 2010, 02:47:10 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.



Our starting line up yesterday certainly had more experience than the Germans at playing top class club football.



Really? Only if you class the EPL as No 1, I see it as 2nd equal with the Germans & the Italians.

Germany's squad had 10 players who made the last 16 in the Champions League last season, 7 whose team lost in the final. They'd 8 who made the last 16 in the Europa League, 4 made it to the semi-final.

England's squad had 6 who made the last 16 in the CL - 2 were in the Quarter-final, they'd 3 that made the last 16 of the EL, making it to the semi-final. (Note Arsenal, QT CL & Fulham EL Finalists, had no players in the England squad).

I reckon the top level experience was weighted in favour of Germany.

Talk about just using last season as an example, to bend the facts towards your arguement.

Playing top flight football in England for one is far better than in Germany. http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2010.html (uefa coefficient for you), Germany clearly a weaker league than England or Spain.

Also by the same arguement over the last 5 years, English teams have clearly progressed further in Europe on a regular basis.







Like using the last 5 years where your average age was 30 & theirs was 25 is a fair assessment? The german league after a severe slump caused by the collapse of a TV deal is on its way up. I'm not getting into a statto argument - just there's plenty of top class competitive experience in their team .
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mondatoo
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« Reply #428 on: June 28, 2010, 02:50:43 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.



Our starting line up yesterday certainly had more experience than the Germans at playing top class club football.



Really? Only if you class the EPL as No 1, I see it as 2nd equal with the Germans & the Italians.

Germany's squad had 10 players who made the last 16 in the Champions League last season, 7 whose team lost in the final. They'd 8 who made the last 16 in the Europa League, 4 made it to the semi-final.

England's squad had 6 who made the last 16 in the CL - 2 were in the Quarter-final, they'd 3 that made the last 16 of the EL, making it to the semi-final. (Note Arsenal, QT CL & Fulham EL Finalists, had no players in the England squad).

I reckon the top level experience was weighted in favour of Germany.

Talk about just using last season as an example, to bend the facts towards your arguement.

Playing top flight football in England for one is far better than in Germany. http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2010.html (uefa coefficient for you), Germany clearly a weaker league than England or Spain.

Also by the same arguement over the last 5 years, English teams have clearly progressed further in Europe on a regular basis.







Like using the last 5 years where your average age was 30 & theirs was 25 is a fair assessment? The german league after a severe slump caused by the collapse of a TV deal is on its way up. I'm not getting into a statto argument - just there's plenty of top class competitive experience in their team .

Yeah, you should've gone back 10 years since the discussion is who has the most experience.We will win the next one,ldo.
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #429 on: June 28, 2010, 02:55:15 PM »


Yeah, you should've gone back 10 years since the discussion is who has the most experience.We will win the next one,ldo.

If you play the Charlton brothers you've got it on experience anyway Wink

I really thought/worried that you were a danger this year - but the press hamstring the management, the players play along with them & then things go tits up.

Capello made some terrible decisions though - Heskey instead of Bent - SWP instead of Walcott etc, but the pressure's put on that the top paid in the tops sides should get a game regardless of what they play like as a team. If Gerard & Lampard don't play well together - DROP ONE OF THEM. I thought Capello had the strength to do it.
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Josedinho
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« Reply #430 on: June 28, 2010, 02:56:00 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.

But these players never go on to get games at the top level either. Excuse the ignorance as i don't know which players were in that squad but i imagine most play in Scotland and they must get a handful of games each season where they play a decent level of opposition.

[/end thread]

There's England's biggest failings right there - ignorance and arrogance.
Don't get protective over your league. I'm not having a dig at Scotland.

http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Scots-absent-but--ten.6334125.jp
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/soccer/article489074.ece/English-Premier-League-rules-the-World-Cup

119 Premier League players went to the World Cup (96 if you want to ignore England players)  compared to 10 from the SPL. That seems to suggest that playing Premier League games is going to make you more likely to go to a World Cup than if you play in SPL games.
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #431 on: June 28, 2010, 02:59:48 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.

But these players never go on to get games at the top level either. Excuse the ignorance as i don't know which players were in that squad but i imagine most play in Scotland and they must get a handful of games each season where they play a decent level of opposition.

[/end thread]

There's England's biggest failings right there - ignorance and arrogance.
Don't get protective over your league. I'm not having a dig at Scotland.

http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Scots-absent-but--ten.6334125.jp
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/soccer/article489074.ece/English-Premier-League-rules-the-World-Cup

119 Premier League players went to the World Cup (96 if you want to ignore England players)  compared to 10 from the SPL. That seems to suggest that playing Premier League games is going to make you more likely to go to a World Cup than if you play in SPL games.

No - but writing off leagues as has been done for the Bundesliga and SPL already doesn't help establish realism about the true abilities & strength in depth of the England squad.
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« Reply #432 on: June 28, 2010, 03:12:42 PM »

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« Reply #433 on: June 28, 2010, 03:18:00 PM »

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Hmmm a poor 3/10 on the Scot trolling scale (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=48570.msg1199338#msg1199338)

However I am giving Rod 6/10 on the same scale, crucial slip ups like saying the Bundesliga was as good as the English top flight and then whining about no one rating it brought the mark down.
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Rod Paradise
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« Reply #434 on: June 28, 2010, 03:23:00 PM »



Hmmm a poor 3/10 on the Scot trolling scale (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=48570.msg1199338#msg1199338)

However I am giving Rod 6/10 on the same scale, crucial slip ups like saying the Bundesliga was as good as the English top flight and then whining about no one rating it brought the mark down.

Believe it or not I wasn't trolling. I stayed off yesterday so as not to give in to the urge to rub it in. I still think your comment was another example of the English hubris we're accustomed to & which so often bites England in the arse. I'll leave you to argue amongst yourselves then.
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