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Author Topic: Come on England  (Read 39476 times)
Josedinho
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« Reply #435 on: June 28, 2010, 03:25:43 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.

But these players never go on to get games at the top level either. Excuse the ignorance as i don't know which players were in that squad but i imagine most play in Scotland and they must get a handful of games each season where they play a decent level of opposition.

[/end thread]

There's England's biggest failings right there - ignorance and arrogance.
Don't get protective over your league. I'm not having a dig at Scotland.

http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Scots-absent-but--ten.6334125.jp
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/soccer/article489074.ece/English-Premier-League-rules-the-World-Cup

119 Premier League players went to the World Cup (96 if you want to ignore England players)  compared to 10 from the SPL. That seems to suggest that playing Premier League games is going to make you more likely to go to a World Cup than if you play in SPL games.

No - but writing off leagues as has been done for the Bundesliga and SPL already doesn't help establish realism about the true abilities & strength in depth of the England squad.
I never wrote off the Bundesliga. In fact it was me that suggested that the German players that impressed at the U21 tournament last year had gained more top level experience than their English counterparts.
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nirvana
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« Reply #436 on: June 28, 2010, 04:31:08 PM »

When you consider the number of young English players actually holding down a place in top sides you'd have to say that our football is going backwards at an alarming rate compared to so many other sides across the world.

Laying England to qualify for the next world cup is probably great value
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boldie
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« Reply #437 on: June 28, 2010, 05:02:25 PM »

But surely the only reason they don't hold down a place is because they're not good enough? Introducing a "5 home grown player" minimum would just weaken the EPL, no??

I can't remember where I read it (think it was some sort of colum on Yahoo) but they raised an interesting point. In Holland and Germany the WC is everything. The same for Brazil and Argentina. in England players are much more bothered about club footie, the EPL and Championsleague are more important to players here than the WC is to us.
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nirvana
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« Reply #438 on: June 28, 2010, 05:23:23 PM »

Agree they can't get in these sides because they are not good enough. I guess it comes back to Tighty's point on the whole structure of English football and 'how' we play the game.

There has never been a significant demand from overseas clubs for our players - I guess it's cause our players, generally, aren't that good.

Also, to your point, if a semi-talented young English pro like Walcott can earn a couple of mill a year on the fringes of the Arsenal team, then shining on a world stage is not that important I guess.
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« Reply #439 on: June 28, 2010, 05:34:08 PM »

Agree they can't get in these sides because they are not good enough. I guess it comes back to Tighty's point on the whole structure of English football and 'how' we play the game.

There has never been a significant demand from overseas clubs for our players - I guess it's cause our players, generally, aren't that good.

Also, to your point, if a semi-talented young English pro like Walcott can earn a couple of mill a year on the fringes of the Arsenal team, then shining on a world stage is not that important I guess.

Nail and head.
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Josedinho
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« Reply #440 on: June 28, 2010, 06:33:19 PM »

No they aren't good enough but that is the point. A 20yr old English player has potential but a 28 year old Turkish player is better so the turk plays and the 20yr old never improves. If they were forced to play more English players then they may improve. Not saying it is a certainty but it might help. Premier League may go down a notch but plenty of room for foreign players that do improve the league so it shouldn't collapse.
The likes of Joe Hart, Gary Cahill, Glen Johnson, Stephen Warnock, Matthew Upson, Peter Crouch and Jermain Defoe have all st some point taken what many consider to be a step down in their career to play regularly and all have become better players because of it.
Are there more out there like them? Is Sturridge the real deal and we're just not seeing him and he's not improving as he's used infrequently at Chelsea but maybe at the likes of Birmingham or Fulham he'd be playing and learning most weeks?
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The Baron
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« Reply #441 on: June 28, 2010, 06:38:56 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem?

This. I thought it was widely accepted that our current younger teams are some of the most exciting we've ever had?
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The Baron
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« Reply #442 on: June 28, 2010, 06:41:20 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

I agree with this sentiment and so does sir alex(after brazil beat you guys)- "Ferguson said: ‘I can’t see past Brazil, actually. They are going to be the ones in South Africa. They are going to be hard to beat. You just have to think of the players they can bring in - they are a supplier of great players.

‘Last season, there were 103 Brazilians in the Champions League and only 15 Englishmen. More Scots played in the Champions League last season than English
players. I thought the 11/10 on Brazil to beat England was the bet of the century.




Was about to run off and find that quote.
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The Baron
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« Reply #443 on: June 28, 2010, 06:44:29 PM »

How come we got to the U21 European championship final last year and are U17 European Champions this year if it's a grass roots problem? I believe it may just be that English players don't get enough games at the top level. I'm not talking Champions League just Premier League.  I think a limit on non british players would be to our advantage but i think we say that after every tournament.

Scotland made the under 19's final in 2006, it didn't make much difference to the national side.



Our starting line up yesterday certainly had more experience than the Germans at playing top class club football.



Really? Only if you class the EPL as No 1, I see it as 2nd equal with the Germans & the Italians.

Germany's squad had 10 players who made the last 16 in the Champions League last season, 7 whose team lost in the final. They'd 8 who made the last 16 in the Europa League, 4 made it to the semi-final.

England's squad had 6 who made the last 16 in the CL - 2 were in the Quarter-final, they'd 3 that made the last 16 of the EL, making it to the semi-final. (Note Arsenal, QT CL & Fulham EL Finalists, had no players in the England squad).

I reckon the top level experience was weighted in favour of Germany.

That's mroe of a form thing though Rod. Over the last 6 seasons of top level football the England squad would win hands down. And prior to 2009 neither the Italian league orGerman league was close to the EPL as the top league.
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The Baron
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« Reply #444 on: June 28, 2010, 06:49:21 PM »


Yeah, you should've gone back 10 years since the discussion is who has the most experience.We will win the next one,ldo.

If you play the Charlton brothers you've got it on experience anyway Wink

I really thought/worried that you were a danger this year - but the press hamstring the management, the players play along with them & then things go tits up.

Capello made some terrible decisions though - Heskey instead of Bent - SWP instead of Walcott etc, but the pressure's put on that the top paid in the tops sides should get a game regardless of what they play like as a team. If Gerard & Lampard don't play well together - DROP ONE OF THEM. I thought Capello had the strength to do it.

This.

Italy had this issue with Del Piero and Totti and someone was always dropped. Spain do it with Fabregas. Brazil didn't even take Ronaldinho.

This brings us back to the point Fergie made though - we just don't have enough depth to choose from.
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The Baron
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« Reply #445 on: June 28, 2010, 06:54:02 PM »

No they aren't good enough but that is the point. A 20yr old English player has potential but a 28 year old Turkish player is better so the turk plays and the 20yr old never improves. If they were forced to play more English players then they may improve. Not saying it is a certainty but it might help. Premier League may go down a notch but plenty of room for foreign players that do improve the league so it shouldn't collapse.
The likes of Joe Hart, Gary Cahill, Glen Johnson, Stephen Warnock, Matthew Upson, Peter Crouch and Jermain Defoe have all st some point taken what many consider to be a step down in their career to play regularly and all have become better players because of it.
Are there more out there like them? Is Sturridge the real deal and we're just not seeing him and he's not improving as he's used infrequently at Chelsea but maybe at the likes of Birmingham or Fulham he'd be playing and learning most weeks?

Add to this the likes of Lampard, Carragher, Crouch, Henry, Shearer, Torres, none of whom made it as a really good player until they were between 23-26? I could name loads more if I could be bothered.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 07:16:37 PM by The Baron » Logged
Woodsey
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« Reply #446 on: June 28, 2010, 08:36:36 PM »

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Woodsey
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« Reply #447 on: June 28, 2010, 08:37:32 PM »

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henrik777
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« Reply #448 on: June 28, 2010, 08:44:34 PM »

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Cos in the morning, the early morning
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A win no way, a win no way


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Murph1984
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« Reply #449 on: June 28, 2010, 08:54:46 PM »

No they aren't good enough but that is the point. A 20yr old English player has potential but a 28 year old Turkish player is better so the turk plays and the 20yr old never improves. If they were forced to play more English players then they may improve. Not saying it is a certainty but it might help. Premier League may go down a notch but plenty of room for foreign players that do improve the league so it shouldn't collapse.
The likes of Joe Hart, Gary Cahill, Glen Johnson, Stephen Warnock, Matthew Upson, Peter Crouch and Jermain Defoe have all st some point taken what many consider to be a step down in their career to play regularly and all have become better players because of it.
Are there more out there like them? Is Sturridge the real deal and we're just not seeing him and he's not improving as he's used infrequently at Chelsea but maybe at the likes of Birmingham or Fulham he'd be playing and learning most weeks?

Add to this the likes of Lampard, Carragher, Crouch, Henry, Shearer, Torres, none of whom made it as a really good player until they were between 23-26? I could name loads more if I could be bothered.

I'm not sure about the others but Lampard,Shearer and Torres should be nowhere near that list.

Lampard was a regular with West Ham from a very young age,18 or so and had a good goal record considering who he was playing for from midfield.

Shearer scored a top flight hat-trick at 18

And Torres had 2 full seasons and over 30 top flight goals as well as being Atletico captain by the time he was 19.
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