The Best In The Business

[redsimon]

If you've got spare savings and can afford to be without the cash in the short-term, it's possible to replace some missing NI qualifying years - up to £733 for each gap year.Those retiring after 6 April 2016 can buy up to 10 years' contributions.

Not wishing to sidetrack the discussion POWWWWWW but someone of Pleno's age wouldn't be putting it aside "in the short term" but until he was 68 or probably the way life expentency going 80+ and the government could change the system in the intervening 35 to 40 years

[dwayne110]

Interesting read Pads.  I can relate to both sides of the coin as i did 5 years 'corporate' straight out of uni training on a big 5 firm ACA programme then left for bet365 worked 5 years 'corporate' in the gambling world and 11 years punting/arbing/poker for myself since.   I think you underestimate a lot of the downside of leaving the rat race, the huge potential earnings back weighted towards the end of your career when your earning potential is huge if you are that talented but you have to suffer in your 20s being underpaid.  No one with real talent (which you will need to win at the rates you quote at poker in 2016) will be reaching peak earnings anywhere before mid 30s at their earliest.  However these earnings can easily be a 'risk free' £500k+ for 20+ years after that period.  There is no risk free in poker.

I don't regret any part of my career and i certainly would have regretted leaving uni to gamble full time in 1996 (it wasn't possible then in reality like it is now).  I hated most of my 5 years doing ACA but it taught me so much about the reality of the business world and provides THE greatest business education going bar none imo and makes me appreciate the lifestyle i lead now.   Without doing that i would never have got the opportunity to sail into a job at 365 which, in turn, allowed me to work easily for other firms after before i gained sufficient skills and knowledge to go it alone.

I appreciate poker in 2016 is slightly different to my story but i think you massively over estimate the work ethic and drive 99% of graduates have.  You are a bit of a freak when it comes to being single minded and driven.  Because you surround yourself with similar types from all over the world i think you think you unique skill set is more common than it is.  99% of guys in their 20's want to play sport, drink loads and shag loads of birds (as well as act like a total degen for a few years gambling with your new found pay packet which i managed to do as well!).   I know i did and if i was 21 again i would do exactly the same things as i choose to do back in 1996.

The vast majority of high level graduates also have no interest in taking real risk with their life/career either.  They have no interest in taking risk and just want a cosy middle England lifestyle which they grew up in and think it totally achievable.  For every Rutter and posh boy there are literally thousands of people like them with identical backgrounds who just wouldn't even consider a poker lifestyle/career even if there was a potential to make £10m a year at the end of the rainbow.

I left the corporate world to gamble as a lifestyle choice mainly and i am sure i would be financially much better off at 42 if i had stayed as an ACA.  I would probably be earning well in excess of £500k a year now if i had never left that business.  I hated it though and left to work in an industry that i was passionate about not for financial gain ultimately.

I call.... 🙂

I admire your confidence Arbs, but what proportion of ACAs in London with, say 20 years experience (lets add 15 to your 5 years experience), do you think are taking home £500k/annum now, let alone 'well in excess of'?

To give some perspective, partners at the Big Four were paid an average of £750k, £722k, £715k and £727k respectively in 2015... so basically your expected salary is at around that level?

Of course you might be managing partner at a top 20 firm by now, or set up your own practice which had become ridiculously successful (massively unlikely due to the glut of competitors, hence all the mergers of practices you see nowadays to enable growth)...  but my point is, only at the highest echelons is £500k+ salaries realistic.

I'd suggest an average, successful ACA with 15-20 years experience might be earning in the region of £80k-£150k, varying based on the size of firm.

[arbboy]

Interesting read Pads.  I can relate to both sides of the coin as i did 5 years 'corporate' straight out of uni training on a big 5 firm ACA programme then left for bet365 worked 5 years 'corporate' in the gambling world and 11 years punting/arbing/poker for myself since.   I think you underestimate a lot of the downside of leaving the rat race, the huge potential earnings back weighted towards the end of your career when your earning potential is huge if you are that talented but you have to suffer in your 20s being underpaid.  No one with real talent (which you will need to win at the rates you quote at poker in 2016) will be reaching peak earnings anywhere before mid 30s at their earliest.  However these earnings can easily be a 'risk free' £500k+ for 20+ years after that period.  There is no risk free in poker.

I don't regret any part of my career and i certainly would have regretted leaving uni to gamble full time in 1996 (it wasn't possible then in reality like it is now).  I hated most of my 5 years doing ACA but it taught me so much about the reality of the business world and provides THE greatest business education going bar none imo and makes me appreciate the lifestyle i lead now.   Without doing that i would never have got the opportunity to sail into a job at 365 which, in turn, allowed me to work easily for other firms after before i gained sufficient skills and knowledge to go it alone.

I appreciate poker in 2016 is slightly different to my story but i think you massively over estimate the work ethic and drive 99% of graduates have.  You are a bit of a freak when it comes to being single minded and driven.  Because you surround yourself with similar types from all over the world i think you think you unique skill set is more common than it is.  99% of guys in their 20's want to play sport, drink loads and shag loads of birds (as well as act like a total degen for a few years gambling with your new found pay packet which i managed to do as well!).   I know i did and if i was 21 again i would do exactly the same things as i choose to do back in 1996.

The vast majority of high level graduates also have no interest in taking real risk with their life/career either.  They have no interest in taking risk and just want a cosy middle England lifestyle which they grew up in and think it totally achievable.  For every Rutter and posh boy there are literally thousands of people like them with identical backgrounds who just wouldn't even consider a poker lifestyle/career even if there was a potential to make £10m a year at the end of the rainbow.

I left the corporate world to gamble as a lifestyle choice mainly and i am sure i would be financially much better off at 42 if i had stayed as an ACA.  I would probably be earning well in excess of £500k a year now if i had never left that business.  I hated it though and left to work in an industry that i was passionate about not for financial gain ultimately.

I call.... 🙂

I admire your confidence Arbs, but what proportion of ACAs in London with, say 20 years experience (lets add 15 to your 5 years experience), do you think are taking home £500k/annum now, let alone 'well in excess of'?

To give some perspective, partners at the Big Four were paid an average of £750k, £722k, £715k and £727k respectively in 2015... so basically your expected salary is at around that level?

Of course you might be managing partner at a top 20 firm by now, or set up your own practice which had become ridiculously successful (massively unlikely due to the glut of competitors, hence all the mergers of practices you see nowadays to enable growth)...  but my point is, only at the highest echelons is £500k+ salaries realistic.

I'd suggest an average, successful ACA with 15-20 years experience might be earning in the region of £80k-£150k, varying based on the size of firm.

I would have been a partner if i had stayed in the game.  If i moved out of practice i would have moved into the city and become a trader and probably have earned way more way quicker (and probably be dead at 40 from the lifestyle)!  Of the 6 guys i trained with all of them are on big 6 figure packages in their various roles in different sectors, most of them outside of London as well.  

You would have to have a serious lack of ambition and drive to still be earning sub 6 figures at the age of 40 as an ACA in a 'proper' job or just be a family man/woman happy with your £60k a year FC/FD role in a small company which is totally fair enough.  Thevery nature of the industry and the types it attracts into 'safe job's for life' means a big proportion are this way inclined which is fine.  I would suggest if you are and still living the boring accountancy lifestyle you have done something wrong somewhere and/or too risk averse.  I was offered a trainee trading job in 2000 on £62k a year basic before bonuses and benefits.

There will be a lot of risk averse 'salaried' partners bringing that average down as well you quote i would imagine.  We are talking about the highest levels here though not average talent.  The discussion is about being suitably driven/talented to make it at the top of the poker world not become the equilvalent of a 2/5 grinder or a £80k a year comfortable FD in a small company.  The average FTSE 250 FD must be making £500k a year all in surely nowadays with wages/pension/shares/bonuses plus all the extra investment income that comes from having a package that big from outside of your day to day role?

[Pinchop73]

A good friend who's 28 or so now, took a bonus on his Brexit weeks' trading of £250k the other day. He's very grounded, he'd himself admit that he's nowhere close to the top earners in the city.

There's an awful lot of rationalising going on in this thread.

[dwayne110]

I'm at the early stages of my career in tax, three years in (having just sat what are hopefully my last two CTA exams!)

I agree there's obviously significant money to be had by coming out of a practice and working in the City for a big bank, etc., and likewise traders/bankers have obscene earnings potential.

I hope in 17 years I'm earning well in excess of £500k, RPI adjusted ofc 😂

[nirvana]

ALSO I think in these discussions people judge "real life" in a very linear manner, and poker in a very inaccurate mannor, examples from this thread from two very smart people...

Get to £100k a year by 35...
Seeing a guy you used to crush win aother $100,000...

Working life outside of pro gambling is much more complicated and diverse than poker, much, much, much more so and it's easy to lose sight of this when not involved. Its spoken about like the only potential is to get a job and make more and more money p/a of which ultimately 40% of each pay jump goes to the IR, this just isn't the case there are so many paths can you take once you are on the road. It's actually poker that is the completely linear financial path, yes you can stake people, crossbook, play yourself, bet sports whatever but at the end of the day you either win...or you lose... Anyone with a brain knows the guy hasn't "Just won another $100,000" and there a hell of lot more out there for smart people than "just trying to get to £100k salary by 35."

Important points, never discussed.

Wanted to write on this yesterday but couldn't find the right words. Still can't but I hear you man

[SuuPRlim]

ALSO I think in these discussions people judge "real life" in a very linear manner, and poker in a very inaccurate mannor, examples from this thread from two very smart people...

Get to £100k a year by 35...
Seeing a guy you used to crush win aother $100,000...

Working life outside of pro gambling is much more complicated and diverse than poker, much, much, much more so and it's easy to lose sight of this when not involved. Its spoken about like the only potential is to get a job and make more and more money p/a of which ultimately 40% of each pay jump goes to the IR, this just isn't the case there are so many paths can you take once you are on the road. It's actually poker that is the completely linear financial path, yes you can stake people, crossbook, play yourself, bet sports whatever but at the end of the day you either win...or you lose... Anyone with a brain knows the guy hasn't "Just won another $100,000" and there a hell of lot more out there for smart people than "just trying to get to £100k salary by 35."

Important points, never discussed.

Wanted to write on this yesterday but couldn't find the right words. Still can't but I hear you man

Yeah i havent explained very well either but basically there is more to life than just getting a job and trying to get promoted

[rfgqqabc]

When I was younger a career at Goldman Sacha was kinda the dream. I read every edition of stock market wizards and was really raring to go. Thankfully at some point I realised that money doesn't make me tremendously happy and the thought of grinding 70 hour work weeks during my 20s and 30s disgusts me now. I'm not the biggest fan of poker now, but I do still like it. I do "grind" sometimes but I definitely still gave the bug. I've been in Punta cana for 3 days and haven't played poker for 5 and Sunday is somewhat calling me despite the weak wifi. I'm almost certain il put in a few sessions of cash some mornings, just like I felt forced to go the gym today for an hour. I personally feel like poker will help you mature in ways that a normal job won't.  The level of emotional control and hard work needed will really set people up for the future as long as they work hard. This isn't to say any random person whose played a hand should make this move but I do think if he is somewhat established then it won't hurt either way. Admittedly buying into a dying industry is a bit of a struggle and I'm probably in a wah better position than most having played every game available online and also having played a few thousand hours of live poker. I see quite a few of my friends who took a more standard career route and I don't think any of them enjoy their job as much as I do and I'm confident I've earnt more than they will of that is a particular marker. Fwiw I also feel like the career ladder is much cloudier than before. Gone are the days of signing up for x corporate firm and enjoying a 5% wage increase for life.

Also I think poker will give me the freedom to make better career choices in the future. The freedom to mature and learn what I actually enjoy will contribute significantly to my future happiness in my opinion. The freedom in poker is truly incredible and I haven't even been particularly successful for two out of the three years of my career. I'm sure this guy probably comes from a country where a midstakes pads horse will crush the EV of a normal job too. Living like a king in Lithuania of 50k USD is pretty sweet and the "career" options will probably not be as attractive for a country with significantly lower average salary. Good topic and posts all round.

Mr. Amblers post made me feel warm and fuzzy

[MANTIS01]

Yea a lot of focus on money. Big part of working out there in the world is you get the opportunity to make a difference, make a difference to people and their lives. You matter to people and you can have a positive effect on people, that's a pretty wondrous thing. I imagine a paramedic goes home after work pretty satisfied about saving a couple of lives that day. As a poker player you matter to nobody, it is a very insular way of life.

[doubleup]

As a poker player you matter to nobody, it is a very insular way of life.

In any money based profession you only matter to the people who benefit from you making money.  Also if you believe people act rationally (that doesn't mean they make the correct decision), "losers" must believe that they get some benefits from playing poker or they wouldn't do it.

[youthnkzR]

I think my first post came across more negative than was intended. I was just pointing out a few things which I feel Patricks unintentional bias to poker caused him to overlook. However on the flip side I think whilst relating to only personal experiences, I was a little hasty to totally disregard recommending poker in favour of university. A few posts between this and my last pointed out a couple of positives for poker I didnt really consider:

-The point about what country the guys from (Whats the average graduate salary and how does it compare).
-The fact that theres more to life than getting a job (however is spending your late teens / early twenties in a degenerate environment the best way to live that life?).
-Personal circumstances (which I think should have the biggest influence on this decision). If you experience a downswing can survive? (Have money away / family support / ability to get a job straight away?...etc).

If the answer to the 3 of the above is in favour of poker then I guess I'd recommend it.

[pleno1]

Strange day, woke up really really late (9:30pm) so wasn't that
Much stuff to play. Ended up winning an EPT seat worth €5.3k and the hot 109 for $16.5k.

Decent day I guess! Going to try and sleep somewhat normally tonight.

[pleno1]

Alright, finally gonna get round to replying to people about the whole dropping out of uni to play poker thing. I have received so many different responses here, twitter, other forums etc, but will just consolidate everything into an unorganised 8am post (fml)

Firstly, I know whenever I write something somewhat out of the ordinary or controversial its going to get lots of people with different opinions commenting. Thats completely fine, I understand exactly where everybody is coming from and especially on this topic most/all the feedback/replies I got were extremely sensible.

Lets just start this off with a reminder, this advice is not for somebody sitting with their friends playing a weekly home game, this is for somebody who is currently winning in mid+ stakes poker.

Life is a long, long, road. I'd bet all the tea in China that you'll not be able to earn much money in poker after you reach your, say, mid-forties. By which point you now need an income for the next 30 or 40 years.

I don't think this is necessarily relevant. If we're really thinking about the "long term" and 40+ years of needed income does it really matter if we spend something in our (presumably) early twenties doing that we love. To me, working in a 9-5 and getting 6 weeks of holiday a year is a restriction to your hobbies and interests. Being in a position to do something you really love whilst making a lot of money doing it and seeing the world seems pretty gto.

A good career outside of poker is not only just as rewarding as one in poker, but it carries amazingly good salary & - wait for it - lifetime pension benefits

I get this, but for somebody who has managed to get to a position that they are winning in poker in 2016 then it means that they really love it and their personality is probably way more suited to something like this than a job.

I thoroughly respect & admire your success in poker, I really do. But there are other interesting jobs than poker, & to some of us, "work" is not a dirty word, it is something we thoroughly enjoy, & do with every bit as much passion as you & poker.

For sure and I understand this too. Like I said above though, somebody who has done well in poker has likely spent a lot of time studying by themselves, running simulations, being immersed in the game and thus will very likely prefer this kind of "job" than a desk job. I made a post a while ago about asking the boss to go to take a piss and feeling sorry for somebody serving pizza for their whole life. I worded them wrong probably, but even so, I understand now that some people have different kind of drives and having security in their life and comfort and ease is important to people. It's important to always understand different approaches to life and thats definitely something I think I've worked on a lot this year.

I know a decent number of 45, 50 & 60 year old poker players who have been relatively successful. Not "pleno successful", but, you know, did OK. I am struggling to think of more than a handful who don't need an outside income now. Poker players, for the most part, are gamblers, & I doubt many have squirelled away money for the future.

I mean, its very likely these guys were just gamblers and part of a way different breed of poker players. Friends I know who play poker treat it very much like a job. They are in the "lab" every day, run simulations, seek advice of best places to store their money and treat it professionally. If there is a 45-50-60 year old poker player that played successfully for a decade and can't win anymore (live poker) tis very likely they 1) Didn't ever win (just because somebody plays in a cash game on tv doesn't mean they are a winner!) or 2) Have some huge life leak that just doesn't allow them to compete anymore (health deterioration, gambling addiction, alcoholic etc) again, this could be me looking at it the wrong way, but the guys who have been making money for 10+ years at poker online will very likely be set for a very long time.

A decent % of the long term poker payers I know are skinto, & always have been. Nature of the beast.

Again, respectfully disagree with this, they were likely always degenerates in some way or another, unfortunately.

your ability to pay into a registered pension scheme is restricted if your source of income is 'non qualifying'.

Definitely something I didn't consider and should have (I used to work in pensions Generally though, I'm not sure if a poker players best choice is to put money into a pension. I argue forever with my parents about not investing in property to allow myself to comfortably have bigger pieces in high rollers and general bankroll. If I think I can play 20 25ks/year and keep an additional 20% at 10% avg roi I get to keep an "extra 10k" etc kind of thought.

One other point I'd note is you're at the peak of your powers currently, but when you're 55+,  it quite as able at 12-tabling, and Pleno version 12 is winning the lot, you might regret some of the decisions you made now if you haven't planned wisely.

Noted, and agree. Hopefully won't be too many regrets, but I think everybody regrets not doing something or another once they get to 50+. Maybe I'm wrong though.

You give a lot of people far too much credit by assuming they are in the same motivational league as yourself. You have a 'bitb' attitude that will see you be successful in pretty much anything you choose to do. 99.9% of the population don't have that same attitude.

Again, sure a lot of people don't, but most guys who are successful in poker these days do work very hard and have something about them that allows them to succeed.

In terms of salary of graduates vs poker players, average salaries etc

I think 20-35 is the years that you should really try and enjoy as much as possible. Its the time I see as still being free, young enough to be wild, mature enough not to get killed. Average salary for fresh graduates is just really bad for this age bracket I think. Sure when you get to 40 you're likely to have a good salary half way through your career, but most people I know that graduates from good universities, with good degrees and are in relatively good jobs don't make a lot of money. I spoke about it before I think, but the average wage amongst graduates is poor and many of them struggle to really see a good life.

Remember, if you want to work your way up the ladder in lets say England, its very likely you have to move to London, once you move there expenses are outrageously high and thus its hard to save money and really push your boundaries (imo)

As a poker player (if you're able to get to the point of winning 50k+ a year) not only do you not pay tax, but you can live where you want, including a beach in thailand, eastern europe, south america or even if you want England!) Lets say you want to live in Budapest or Prague like many of my friends do, its likely you will enjoy life just as much as in London, you can stay in somewhere almost 2x as nice for probably 2x cheaper, never mind all the external costs and price of living.

I think immediate wealth in your 20's - 30's is underrated and I've seen it from both sides.

In terms of the guys who are very good at poker and the guys who haven't done so well.

Lets think of the UK. I think the following are probably top 10 biggest winners over the last 10 years or so at tournaments:

Middy, Jake, Perrins, Toby, Trigg, Moorman, Brammer, Me. All guys are obviously very smart and will always be successful in what they choose to do, but we're also probably not the guys who will be going to work in some big firm in the city. I think there's a different approach to poker and a different skill set needed. Risk aversion and many other factors are built into a successful poker player and separates small stakes players to high stakes players. Many of the top poker players wouldn't end up being top "career workers" whilst many guys in the city would struggle to be successful at poker. imo.

[pleno1]

Say you do ok online, grind your way along, make a bit of profit, whatever. Then you hit a heater, ft some big stuff, maybe win something live. You try telling that person that they aren't good enough to just move up and crush, or even keep playing at the same level and win more. The majority of people who are playing lots of poker and are still at university (myself included in this) are still pretty young and pretty naive to their own ability.

I think this is why a good support system is critical in poker. You absolutely 100%, undoubtedly need a good support system that know you very well and that really understand your situation AND how good you are in poker AND are able to be brutally honest with you. I think being staked for most people is a disaster because you give away 50% of your money. At bitB not only do players make on average 67% more with us than they did on their own, but we offer an amazing and very honest support system that helps the players on all aspects of their life. There's some guys who have been kind of "old school" in UK poker and struggled last little while, we're currently working with them and not only has their game been transformed but they are also being a lot more responsible and realistic, which is the one of the many keys to success.

My classmates at school are oxbridge graduates in big finance jobs in the city, all super motivated and hard working, and at 27/28 I'd be surprised if they're clearing £70k a year before tax. Maybe that number will go up to £100k at 35 and £200k+ at 45? This is all taxed. So net of tax lucky to take home 6 figures in their forties.

The top poker players are pissing on those numbers.

It might not last for ever, but they say every year it's getting tougher and it is, but you've just gotta work harder or look harder for the spots. And I'm sure it's the same in the business world, competition gets tougher and tougher, margins smaller and smaller.

Completely how I see things too (very likely we're biased though)

I think the main question you need to be asking yourself in that spot (although ofc its hard to know at the time unless somebody tells you and you actually listen) is 'Is this the right time to be asking that question?' In Alex's example beating 1/2 live its absolutely too early to be asking the question and anyone thats been pro for a while will tell you that. If you're beating midstakes online and you're gunna commit to the programme you've got a great shot to be absolutely set in 10-15 years maybe less so lets get stuck in!


Yes, very important and again why a support system is very important.

Problem is, the only one who can make that judgement is you. And there are so, so, so many people who will wildly overestimate there ability and come down very hard for it if they follow this advice.

Cant we just get some high stakes pros to come in here and comment?

Again, this is why a support system is so important, having coaches, studying partners, top players you can review your stats against etc is not only critical for choosing your path here (univspoker) but also to being a successful poker player. I doubt theres anybody out there who is a really top successful poker player that doesn't have minimum 3 players he can message that are better than them or offer a different/alternative approach, except for the top 3 best guys obi

Unless your one of the few who can find the perfect balance, being a poker player - especially online, is a terrible lifestyle. Unsociable hours, unsociable setting, stress/bad for your health, no respect for money, immaturity... the list goes on.

Again, kind of thing I disagree with. I think if you're that kind of guy its just very hard to be successful, its part of a dna of a successful 2016 poker player to be a little bit more mature, not degenerate etc. Stress/bad for health, unsociable hours, I agree to a certain extent, but then again, having to go to sleep at a certain time because I need to be awake at a certain time (usually very early, cold, grey etc) sounds like the epitome of hell for me

For me being a poker player is a means to an end.. I want enough money to be comfortable in my future endeavors. I've honestly thought about quitting a few times these past couple of years (whilst clearing 6 figure profits in both) and thats playing cash games where I have alot more flexibility than the regs who grind MTTs daily. The one thing from stopping me quitting playing full time is the money. Both that which I can roughly expect to achieve, and the potential there is out there, in forms of MTT binks and the US coming back into the online market... steps have already been taken.

Yeah, I get this completely mate. It just isn;t the right game for a lot of people, so many people fall out of love with the game and one of the gambles of really going "all in" and giving it absolutely everything is that in 2 years maybe you hate it. Definitely something I should have included in the initial blog, but then again, 2 years comes by, you've made a bunch of money but you don't enjoy it anymore, can just go and start uni right? Not a deal breaker imo.

I'm happy at 25, I've got a family/house now and I went to and graduated university alongside playing poker / going out / seeing friends / playing football...etc and I'm glad I did all this. (FWIW I didn't get a 2nd class degree nor have a shit winrate; 36% ROI over ~10k games at ABI ~$60 - ok so ~40% of this came post uni (I dont have a SS sub to know the exact numbers), but it was inkeeping with trend). Maybe grinding fulltime I could have achieved a lot more, but surely this shows that both can done if you apply yourself correctly. I'd never advise someone to sacrifice life experiences when they're young to sit and grind unsociable hours at a PC 6 days per week.

I was speaking more personally. When I was at university I was winning at good win rates, I was doing decent at university but if I had dedicated everything to studying poker at that time I would have clearly played a lot higher stakes. I'm not a genius by any stretch of the imagination, I was just a very hard worker and if I had dedicated the time earlier I would have had quicker success. Some guys will manage to play high stakes mtts with a high roi and get a good university degree but they will be in the minority and they still probably didn't achieve close to what was possible in poker.

I really do respect your opinion on everything poker, however I've gotta disagree with your article. You've got to remember your at the top of the game (having worked extremely hard to do so). However theres people out there who don't have a chance of achieving even 5% of what you have, and would have to have similar drive to get anywhere close to that 5%. Your one of the lucky ones that not only had the potential to get where you are, you also had the mental strength / balls and rungood to overcome all the shit out there. Not many people would have that - I certainly wouldnt have.

Thanks bro  and the respect is mutual as you know. However, I do know 95% don't have what it takes, but I was more trying to speak towards the 5% (Y)

The risk of ruin at poker is something most business men are unhappy with, my opinion however is that the risk of being unsuccessful at business is higher and has a more devastating downside than simply running out of money. Spending your whole life aiming for senior management when the whole time you may have had no chance because the boss's nephew is going to join the company 5 years after you and then take the top spot when he finally retires means you have spent your whole life deluded and being used for the profit of someone else and being paid 20% of what you bring in for the shareholders and told to be grateful for it. That doesn't sit well with me at all. For most people it's fine, and that's fine, but occasionally people are unwilling to do that, and some of them find poker a suitable career

Nicely put

There is a big big difference in the mental makeup of poker pros and degens, the fact that degens and luckboxes who win a big comp early or who run above expectation for a year or two call themselves pros does us no favours at all. The real pros treat gambling as a job, manage their time and bankroll effectively and achieve great success and are happy with themselves for doing it.

yep

Final point is that some of the best paying and highest job satisfaction jobs don't require a degree, and startups defo don't, so unless you are at uni to study rather than just as an entry point for a job then it is overrated, and because so many people go to uni these days it is getting to the point that even with a degree you can't get the job you were hoping for anyway.

Yeah, nice point as well.

One of my clients is a law firm and they pay new grads around £70k and they're not the highest payers. If you're a quants guy going into the City then you can double that number. One of my colleagues is a grad, early thirties, salesman in a tech firm and earned around £400k this year.

This is an interesting article. Average salary for graduates is around 20-25k, for lawyers, a first job is 54k (really good!) and after round 10 years (age 35) you get to around £75k/year peaking usually at around £180k for very established lawyers etc. Tech firms etc not sure, but £400k (pre tax) seems decent yeah!


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/11554820/How-much-are-lawyers-really-paid.html

YOLO

<3

I guarantee that for every Fedor earning chunks at poker there will many graduates in the City earning significantly more.

Where do you think the top earning poker player of all time would sit on the list of top earning city graduates of all time? You think he'd make the top ten? I doubt it.

Yeah, these stuff I really don't know. How many people who get the opportunities in those really good roles needed to know somebody, somewhere to get in them though? Who knows Then again guys, this is all UK based stuff, a guy in Brazil (guy from the article) or lithuania, Hungary or wherever else is very different. There's actually not many UK guys who are playing and crushing poker these days (prob all in the city a lot of the hard working guys who are crushing are from countries with low average salary, maybe thats a reason why.

The thing is, apart from your final year at University, it is not time consuming at all - and there is plenty of scope for poker. Not to mention all the holidays etc.

I'm not sure this is true. Sure you can let uni pass you by a little, not do the extra stuff etc, but I think it would be really fun to 100% focus and enjoy university without this other thing in your life taking up 90% of your mental energy, never mind the ups and downs it brings to your focus and happiness.

As someone who used to play seriously through uni and is now nearing 28, I can tell you most of the people my age who ended up sticking with poker as opposed to completing uni//getting a job do not seem to be the happiest people today.

Thats strange, almost all my friends who played poker for the last 10 years or so (and are still playing) are very happy and more motivated than ever.

Really enjoy this blog but disagree with the article. It could potentially steer some young man down the wrong path.

Again, will reiterate, if you're playing poker in your students union once a week and you won the SNG last week, get to your lecture tomorrow morning!

It doesn't really sound like much scope to make a bad call here, it should be fairly obvious that poker is the riskier decision, the lifestyle is dangerous (no-one can argue otherwise), risk of ruin is certainly there (no-one can argue otherwise) but short term upside is massive for him in the climate that he's described to be in, in 3 years time even with £100k in his rocket he's going to be in a very strong position, trust me going out into the world with a chunk of cash is a MONSTER advantage, I would say significantly more advantage (in general) than a uni degree, although that statement could be proven to be total rubbish by the revelation of what field he wants to study...

agree! I know so many different friends who are super smart and COULD do something really good independently by themselves, but tough when the bank balance doesn't come along with your plans and you haven't got friends/contacts who are VC's.

Working life outside of pro gambling is much more complicated and diverse than poker, much, much, much more so and it's easy to lose sight of this when not involved. Its spoken about like the only potential is to get a job and make more and more money p/a of which ultimately 40% of each pay jump goes to the IR, this just isn't the case there are so many paths can you take once you are on the road. It's actually poker that is the completely linear financial path, yes you can stake people, crossbook, play yourself, bet sports whatever but at the end of the day you either win...or you lose... Anyone with a brain knows the guy hasn't "Just won another $100,000" and there a hell of lot more out there for smart people than "just trying to get to £100k salary by 35."

Nicely put amigo.

When I was younger a career at Goldman Sacha was kinda the dream. I read every edition of stock market wizards and was really raring to go. Thankfully at some point I realised that money doesn't make me tremendously happy and the thought of grinding 70 hour work weeks during my 20s and 30s disgusts me now.

I see quite a few of my friends who took a more standard career route and I don't think any of them enjoy their job as much as I do and I'm confident I've earnt more than they will of that is a particular marker. Fwiw I also feel like the career ladder is much cloudier than before. Gone are the days of signing up for x corporate firm and enjoying a 5% wage increase for life.



Also a lot of my friends who do work for such companies think its a huge grind and wish they could go a different route. The "nice wage" doesn't seem to compensate for their unenjoyment working for complete and utter tossers.

[pleno1]

A lot of focus on money. Big part of working out there in the world is you get the opportunity to make a difference, make a difference to people and their lives. You matter to people and you can have a positive effect on people, that's a pretty wondrous thing. I imagine a paramedic goes home after work pretty satisfied about saving a couple of lives that day. As a poker player you matter to nobody, it is a very insular way of life.

For sure, and completely agree. That's definitely something that poker doesn't give you. The satisfaction of helping somebody else and going home happy and proud because of it. Quite the opposite actually, I remember playing a fish for 3 hours at 5/10 one night on micro gaming, he eventually didn't top up and begged me to send him back the money as it was his rent money for his family. I remember it really well actually, so yeah its definitely something that we don't enjoy. I try to help others in ways I wouldn't have been able to if I didn't have success at poker, but usually its just close friends rather than people I wouldn't meet day to day.


It is different going to uni in your early twenties than going late 20s/early 30s. I'm among couple of players who decided to skip uni 5-8 years ago, now plan to get a degree to move on with their lives. From what I see, uni experience for them is SO much different than the one I had studying in early 20s. Especially the social side just sucks. Everyone is like 18/19 when you are 28-32 - yeah, 18/19 yo girls sounds fun in theory. reality is different.


Good point, something I should have spoken about. I think though, that no matter how fun £1 jagerbombs at the same student union every night for 3 years is, bottles in vegas or buckets in Thailand will likely trump that. Being a poker player at 18-30 is going to be better than almost anything possible because of the freedom+finance. If you have to go to university at 28-32 and not go out so much to shit-holes its not going to have a hugely negative impact on your life.

Firstly, I don’t agree that earning the max. amount of $ in life is the only thing you should strive for and more importantly it can be dangerous, if you base your self-esteem or value in society in general around it.

Agree.

That being said, I think there can be a middle ground of making decent money next to studying and working on other interesting jobs/projects from time to time, taking time off to go travelling etc. There is a lot more out there than thinking about poker 24/7

Most poker players aren't playing 24/7, but its very hard to do uni+poker+good social life. Playing just poker without a good social life is definitely not gto.

The circle of players that will be able to earn very good money through online MTTs for the next 5-10 years is going to be a lot smaller than expected IMO, but could obv be wrong and the numbers will stay same, grow etc.
Having been part of your stable for ~6 months last year, I have to admit that I underestimated how much hard work it would take to be a successful full time poker player in 2015/16. I have max respect for everyone at bitb, would always recommend working with you to someone who wants to succeed in poker.

ma man, one of the saddest things for us was you deciding not to play poker full time, if only we had one more chance to try and convince you otherwise!

Grad school was the worst mistake of my life- halfway in realizing I wanted to play poker, but just finished the degree anyways for the sake of it. Spewing 6 figures on 2 years worth of education, I think the actual cost of higher education should be considered as well, not just the opportunity cost.

Yeah, in the article I posted above, it showed that graduating from top universities is very expensive.

It doesn't apply to you or many others, but uni also teaches you dem life skillz and independence. Some of the best button clickers out there are basically worthless trying to accomplish any other basic task in life, simply because they went from living with parents to being a balla, with no middle ground in growing up and becoming an adult. Basically all of the legit, responsible, balanced, got-their-****-together poker players I know all went to uni.

Haha, you're probably massively overestimating me, I'm a disaster in almost all forms of life



I decided to move on to university despite still making good money, probably the best decision I could have made. A richer life full of activities and new friends beats grinding or living with a couple of poker players imo, though it differs from person to person i'd imagine. Learning new skills and hobbies is also really underrated. Especially if you already made enough money to not having to worry about too much about what you buy/how you spend.

Glad to hear everything is working out well buddy, catch up soon.

Playing poker doesn't have to mean not making new friends or enjoying activities. Sure if you wanna be OTBredbaron you prob need to lock yourself in a room and study but that's the same for the top of any profession. If you're not using the freedom that poker offers to have MORE time for activities/friends/family then you're doing it wrong imo.

And yeah, agree.


nice score in hot 109, saw you raise/folding to ~7.5bb shove etc, whats the max reshove size to call any two when opening 2x?

it depends

Interesting insight that applies to people in a similar position to mine. Even though University will always be there, the drive to study and major will not. In this world, people in general do not truly respect the path less taken and that is a sad reality. Poker players love being optimal, but this requires understanding not only how things work, but how they are perceived. Personally, I agree with parts of both arguments, but it is really tough to pick only one. People want to have it all, such is life.

Good way to end it