5 handed re-raise at Bingo time

[SuuPRlim]

ha atleast I dont see a bunch of wtfs and "my heads gonna asplode" type of posts so thats a good sign.

basically what I wrote previously was either not read entirely and/or not interpreted correctly and taken out of context.

I clearly said 'I do believe villain played it incorrectly. If you have AJ in villain's spot, do not minraise. Depending on payouts/game dynamics, shove or fold.'

1. So I was arguing the villain with AJ did play it bad and anyone arguing minraising with AJ "to get action from worse hands/get opponent to spew or he got you to get your money in with a worse hand" is making a technically flawed argument, esp. given stack sizes. So I disagree with anyone that is arguing minraising with AJ is a good line and winning mtters/sngers will tell you its a terrible play and virtually no set of circumstances justify minraise with AJ as a +EV play.

2. Also, anyone arguing that raise/folding QJ pre is not an option is either taking my argument out of context or is not familiar with some specific mtt/sng dynamics. I clearly said depending on payouts/game dynamics. Say if the opponent with AJ is a nit playing to cash, then you can raise QJ and fold if he shoves as you know when he does take a stand he will have you crushed. Say if payout structure is 10k each for 1st and 2nd only, then you can raise QJ and fold as you're opponent will have to fold AJ there and if he shoves, you can easily fold. So as much as I had hoped my implying all this would be understood by using a phrase like "depending payouts/game dynamics" I guess sometimes you just have to expand on it.

3. Also, anyone arguing folding AJ pre is not an option and is equivalent to 'might as well quit if AJ is folded pre' is also offering incorrect advice and I obv. disagree with that as well. My point is, as I clearly said, depending on payout structures/game dynamics, shove or fold AJ pre. So I'm arguing there will be times given an entirely different payout structure and against a particular set of opponents, you will have to fold AJ pre and doing anything else will be hugely -EV. Any satty/icm expert will tell you there are times when folding AA pre is correct and/ AJ is not even close. Again, I clearly said, 'depending on payouts, raise or fold AJ pre' so if you ignore half of the sentence and argue "you can never fold AJ pre" then basically your argument is invalid as you are taking my point out of context. So anyone saying "he is wrong cus he is evaluating a diff. hand" well I'm not wrong cus I'm evaluating a diff. hand, I'm actually changing up the parameters like payouts and player images to illustrate another point and taking OP's spot a step further.

I guess as I expand on this some of it will be clear thats why I said reread the post to see what I was referring to (ie diff. set of parameters regarding payouts/table dynamics).

4. Thing is I don't expect for everyone to interpret everything I say in a sentence entirely the way I intended it without me having to expand/clarify that's why people write books, some of these concepts you can write pages on and no one has time for that here. I guess I was assuming by using generalized phrases like 'depending on payouts/game dynamics' people will get what I'm implying and clearly not everyone did.

5. I didn't say winning player to insinuate the other poster isnt. Just from my experience, a lot of respected regs don't go "wtf, my heads exploding, i can rip more into this post" etc but instead ask constructive qns. if they arent clear on something. The kind of debate I prefer to engage in is the civil, constructive one. That's why I offered to not post in his other threads if our posting styles don't gel well as I would not like to contribute to disruption on this forum.

So basically some of this confusion resulted from misinterpretation and some of it I believe through incorrect fundamental understanding of concepts/correct plays. Hopefully some of that is clarified. I'm done with this hand and moving on to next one as its a simple spot to me and there is nothing more I can expand on here.

I would add it was an interesting discussion. As I get used to posting in strategy forums, it did help me realize some stuff like how not to phrase strategy opinions.  I am definitely not trying to create any confusion. Cheers.

I dont have issue with the content of your posts, its just the tone of them seems to rub me the wrong way a bit, I am new to posting here as well really so defo dont wanna fall out with anyone or discourage new people, who put thought and effort into their posts from posting. So again no hard feelings.

[NigDawG]

i mean, it sounds like op was raise folding to a shove preflop, so i think you could argue the guy with AJ actually played his hand ok

[Royal Flush]

1. So I was arguing the villain with AJ did play it bad and anyone arguing minraising with AJ "to get action from worse hands/get opponent to spew or he got you to get your money in with a worse hand" is making a technically flawed argument, esp. given stack sizes. So I disagree with anyone that is arguing minraising with AJ is a good line and winning mtters/sngers will tell you its a terrible play and virtually no set of circumstances justify minraise with AJ as a +EV play.

Why is it technically flawed, show me why you can't just say it.

I am a winning MTTer and i say in this situation its a great line as we have an OP who is going to raise fold but we can get him to change his mind by just raising small and then by his own admission he is just going to call it off anyway post!

Stop looking at everything by hard and fast rules, be adaptable the game often throws up very unique spots so you can't play to a formula if you want to play optimal.

[psustudent]

def. dont play by a formula. I like to think I adapt well.

I guess, with my overall style of playing, I can't see myself minraising with AJ pre in this spot. I feel more comfortable shoving or folding AJ pre given stacks. Even if OP 'appears' like they would raise fold, I still just like to get it in pre. I dont think 11bbs stack is good for minraise play oop to try to pick up a few more chips.

I see the argument about 'if OP is guaranteed to raise fold but will call a minraise so we can minraise to pick up chips.' But I would rather balance my shoving range/image. For one, its easy to say 'clearly he looks like he will raise/fold but he will call a minraise 100% and I know for sure I have him dominated.' There's no way for you to know that . So, do you want to a) maybe pickup 50k chips but no guarantees by making an awkward/fancy play or b) stay balanced with your image/use it later in a metagame sense to your benefit headsup to get opponents to make mistakes. And the latter works for me and I'll just be honest, minraise generally as a play technically is not appealing to me, atleast for my overall style of play.

I'm all for creative plays and if someone can make it work for them, more power to them.  I just dont think minraising AJ there is hugely +EV but could be breakeven or -ev play longterm, atleast for me. But good discussion guys, cheers.

[SuuPRlim]

personally in a situation where im 5 handed in tourney (doesnt happen often lol) I would be looking to play every hand for max. value in a vacuum than worrying about balance too mugh. espcially with 11bbs

I am a winning MTTer

Prove it

[EvilPie]

def. dont play by a formula. I like to think I adapt well.

I guess, with my overall style of playing, I can't see myself minraising with AJ pre in this spot. I feel more comfortable shoving or folding AJ pre given stacks. Even if OP 'appears' like they would raise fold, I still just like to get it in pre. I dont think 11bbs stack is good for minraise play oop to try to pick up a few more chips.

I see the argument about 'if OP is guaranteed to raise fold but will call a minraise so we can minraise to pick up chips.' But I would rather balance my shoving range/image. For one, its easy to say 'clearly he looks like he will raise/fold but he will call a minraise 100% and I know for sure I have him dominated.' There's no way for you to know that . So, do you want to a) maybe pickup 50k chips but no guarantees by making an awkward/fancy play or b) stay balanced with your image/use it later in a metagame sense to your benefit headsup to get opponents to make mistakes. And the latter works for me and I'll just be honest, minraise generally as a play technically is not appealing to me, atleast for my overall style of play.

I'm all for creative plays and if someone can make it work for them, more power to them.  I just dont think minraising AJ there is hugely +EV but could be breakeven or -ev play longterm, atleast for me. But good discussion guys, cheers.

If I was the AJ guy here I would definitely just get it in. I wouldn't expect oppo to pass so definitely no need for fancy plays.

If oppo had raised to 34k though instead of 50k I might think differently. A raise which clearly says "I'm not folding" but still gives oppo a chance to get them in first might just get me paid off. I don't know why but even with no FE whatsoever people still have this thing about "well at least I got them in first".

As for getting called and having to play a pot oop I really don't mind about that at all. Position is irrelevant once I've got oppo to commit half his stack. They're going in no matter what so it really doesn't matter.

[Royal Flush]

I see the argument about 'if OP is guaranteed to raise fold but will call a minraise so we can minraise to pick up chips.' But I would rather balance my shoving range/image. For one, its easy to say 'clearly he looks like he will raise/fold but he will call a minraise 100% and I know for sure I have him dominated.' There's no way for you to know that . So, do you want to a) maybe pickup 50k chips but no guarantees by making an awkward/fancy play or b) stay balanced with your image/use it later in a metagame sense to your benefit headsup to get opponents to make mistakes. And the latter works for me and I'll just be honest, minraise generally as a play technically is not appealing to me, atleast for my overall style of play.

I'm all for creative plays and if someone can make it work for them, more power to them.  I just dont think minraising AJ there is hugely +EV but could be breakeven or -ev play longterm, atleast for me. But good discussion guys, cheers.

Do not worry about balancing your 11bb 3b range, its never going to be light in this spot so no need to balance. As a general rule we don't need to balance our range too much as the people we are playing in a casino tournament probably won't notice anyway.

I don't need to have him dominated, he never folds worse to a shove pre so what's the problem with widening his range?

'b) stay balanced with your image/use it later in a metagame sense to your benefit headsup to get opponents to make mistakes'

This sentence makes no sense.

Also what is your overall style of play and why does it prevent you from playing hands in an optimal manner?

[Royal Flush]

When given the chance to talk nice-nice about himself, Shallow didn't dare. He knows the score and it fits right in with his basic poker philosophy.

"Dont be results orientated. Don't tilt," Shallow said. "Just because a load of good players think something is right, doesnt make it right. Think independently."

Stop looking at everything by hard and fast rules, be adaptable the game often throws up very unique spots so you can't play to a formula if you want to play optimal.

[ ] Independent thought
[X] High horse fail

Ha i actually left out the line "Be an independent thinker"

[psustudent]

heh think topic's been made overcomplicated. pretty simple spot for me.

as we know there's diff. ways to play a hand. I stand by how I said I would play it out as it suits my overall gameplan and I'm sure others arguing for alternative lines have their reasons.

this one's getting old. moving on to next hand. cheers.

[Royal Flush]

heh think topic's been made overcomplicated. pretty simple spot for me.

as we know there's diff. ways to play a hand. I stand by how I said I would play it out as it suits my overall gameplan and I'm sure others arguing for alternative lines have their reasons.

this one's getting old. moving on to next hand. cheers.

What is your overall gameplan?

Mine is just to win, am curious to see what other alternatives people come up with.