Prose from a Poshboy

[Honeybadger]

Cliffs:

"You can shear a sheep many times, but skin it only once" - Can't remember who

Yep, I originally included that truism in my post and then removed it. The reason for removing it was that I was actually trying to make a much wider point.

FWIW: When I occasionally come to DTD I really enjoy the reg-filled nature of the games, the 3bet wars, the very slow pace and long dwells, the all-out-warfare game texture; basically the seriousness and intensity with which every hand is played. But it is not my regular game, and when I choose to play there it is for a bit of a change and a challenge vs the young guns. I would never ever let my regular game turn into what they have let it become. All of those things I listed are TERRIBLE attributes for any regular cash game to have, and most recreational players are completely turned off by that sort of vibe.

[cambridgealex]

Great post Stu, while it's all true, there's something that doesn't quite sit well with me about all this.

The idea of us all clubbing together, ganging up on somebody, playing a certain style that avoids playing pots with other regs, and targets the "fish", letting them into pots.

And this whole notion of schmoozing up to them, "giving them a good time", it's not really the sort of person I want to be - I find it massively cringeworthy. Maybe that's what it takes, but it's a pretty sad world to be a part of if that's true. Reminds me of what I imagine the rat race to be like, buying champagne for clients you despise, sweet-talking and arse-kissing your way up the career ladder.

For the record, we really don't talk icm and technical bollocks at the table, maybe very very occasionally, but it's pretty rookie to do so as you mentioned and most of us are aware of that.

[jgcblack]

 

One of best posts ever read, and so true.

More Juanda, less Ziigmund.

Cliffs:

"You can shear a sheep many times, but skin it only once" - Can't remember who

What a truely inspirational post sir... really well done.  I hope Alex and ALL 'regs' around the uk that read that take it on board and work together.

I don't think I'd thought about it that much before, but I will definitely try to more in future.

thank you.

[Honeybadger]

The idea of us all clubbing together, ganging up on somebody, playing a certain style that avoids playing pots with other regs, and targets the "fish", letting them into pots.

And this whole notion of schmoozing up to them, "giving them a good time", it's not really the sort of person I want to be - I find it massively cringeworthy. Maybe that's what it takes, but it's a pretty sad world to be a part of if that's true. Reminds me of what I imagine the rat race to be like, buying champagne for clients you despise, sweet-talking and arse-kissing your way up the career ladder.

Sigh Alex. You can choose to interpret what I said in that light if you want. But it's wrong, honestly it is.

It's not about 'ganging up' on the recreational players. And it is not about schmoozing them either. It is about caring for and respecting your customers and giving them value for their money.

You don't have to do this in a false or contrived way. You don't have to schmooze, you don't have to put on an act, you don't have to pretend. In fact you mustn't do any of these things because they will always be seen through.

Instead you must be completely and authentically yourself. No fanny. No act. No bullshit. Just authenticity and genuineness.

But you must still give your customers a game in which they want to play in. And you must still give them value for the money they spend. It is that simple. And you must work with the other regs to do this. This is your job. You should be spending more of your mental energy thinking about how to create the best possible environment for your customers than you should thinking about how to play your hands.

These guys are paying HUGE sums of money to sit in your game (in EV terms obv). If someone's EV for a session is -£500, do you realise how hard it is to give them REAL VALUE for that amount of money?

[celtic]

Just wow at honeybadger. Looks like Chompy, writes like a genius.

[PizzicatoXev]

I agree with alot of what was written but there is a fine line between the regs ensuring that the casual player has a good time and collusion...

[Honeybadger]

I agree with alot of what was written but there is a fine line between the regs ensuring that the casual player has a good time and collusion...

Collusion is cheating and should never, ever be done. Obviously.

Working with other players to make your game as inviting an environment as possible is NOT colluding. It is good, ethical business practice. Choosing not to 3bet a reg because you want to keep the weaker players in the hand is not collusion. It is playing your hand in the most profitable manner possible. If it is more profitable to 3bet then obviously do so. Often it is actually more profitable to flat and let the weak players in the pot (and when calculating the EVs of 3betting vs flatting you need to consider both the short-term 'best for this hand' EV and the long-term 'best for the good of the game' EV). This is not collusion. I would strongly suggest that if a spot is close regs at DTD err on the side of 3betting, when instead they should be erring on the side of flatting.

[Honeybadger]

One of best posts ever read, and so true.

What a truely inspirational post sir... really well done.  I hope Alex and ALL 'regs' around the uk that read that take it on board and work together.

I don't think I'd thought about it that much before, but I will definitely try to more in future.

thank you.

Just wow at honeybadger. Looks like Chompy, writes like a genius.

Thanks guys.

[Honeybadger]

I think part of the problem, and the reason for the misunderstanding, is to do with two very different ideas of what a poker game actually is.

Most people see a poker game as a collection of individuals all striving to get the better of each other.

I see a poker game as an organic entity in which every part is dependent on the whole, and the whole is dependent on every part. It is not 'you against the world', neither is it 'us against them'. In fact, there is no you, us, or them.

There is an optimum state for every organism at which every single part of that organism will achieve maximum utility. It is not possible for one part to gain at the expense of another (this would be parasitic and would imply there being more than one organism). Your regular game is an organism of which you are a part. So are the other regs. So are the recreational players. You are all symbiotic. Everyone benefits from the optimum state, the recreational players just as much as the regs.

Honestly, I haven't had anything to smoke tonight.

[jgcblack]

I notice people have mentioned collusion...

What are and where are the lines when playing in a game when you have got good mates in it... and why do or why don't people profit share both loss and gain wise?

I've heard a lot of different views on this, varying between two people directly working out profit/loss splits between then and an entire group of people going into a room with the intention of bleeding it dry...



I don't think this is phrased particularly well, and it is well 5am... I was at work yesterday @ 9am.  But does anyone get what I'm asking here?

[kinboshi]

A while back I played at DTD in a 2/5 game and two of you guys were having a conversation at the table about ICM-based optimal shoving ranges. This is not a good thing. There were two weak spots at the table, and several of you were exchanging 'subtle' knowing looks between yourselves after these weak players showed down hands that they had played terribly. I clocked these glances and it made me cringe inside. Even if the weak players did not see anything (one of them definitely did notice BTW), it demonstrated that you guys do not truly 'get' poker. Start showing the recreational players more respect, and focus more of your energy on providing these guys with what they want. They are your customers, and most of your focus should be on giving them a game that they want to play in. Then everyone wins. And you will have a healthy, vibrant game for years to come.

There's someone who plays at DTD (not one of the Eureka crew)  who takes great pleasure in discussing player's weaknesses and belittling people's play at the table. I know, because he often belittles my play. Wouldn't mind, but I enjoy playing against him because his game is a million miles away from where he thinks it is and I don't think I've ever seen him win a cash session and I've certainly taken more from him the other way round.

He's also fascinated by "who is the best" and criticising players,most of whom I'd suggest are better and more successful than he is.

Anyway, he's an extreme example but it would be worth some of the pros stepping back to watch as an impartial observer to try and see how others view the players and the games. Alex, you mentioned that people don't sit with thousands at the 1/2 game very often, but that's the perception many have - so where does it come from? Surely the perception is all that matters.

[kinboshi]

Personally, I think there is an issue with the limits.. The 1-2 Regs play as though they’re on a 2-5 5-10 tables and the 50/1 regs play as though they’re on a 1-2 table.   I’d like to see DTD eliminate the 50/1 and just have 1-1 1-2 and above, allowing more serious play by both pro’s and recreational players.  People don’t mind losing £25-£50 but do mind losing say £100-500.

Also the tables are never evenly spread, sometimes they’ll be a 1 full table (Which often breaks when they lose 3 players) and another 2 table of 4 and 3 players, why not introduce feeder/must move tables so they always have at least one constant game.   I’ve also noticed situations where 2 people would leave a table and other players at the table would take it upon themselves to move to other tables in the cash game area without notifying staff, killing the game that they were sat in.  There needs to be more control overall..


The reggy feel to the game is something you get in most clubs but the fact that DTD only ever get 1 or 2 deep games going regularly I think you feel it more. 

I could go on about the club layout/player psychology and other things, but I don’t want to bore anyone…

Anyway that’s my 5 Cents..

Bold bit is one of the main reasons I don't play cash at DTD. Just too easy to lose an uncomfortable amount on a given night

It has been changed.

There is an 'entry-level' 50/1 game with a £100 cap.

There is a 1/1 game with a £250 cap (I think?)

Then there's a 1/2 with no cap and the 2/5 also uncapped.

I'm talking about completely killing the .50/1 game, just having 1-1 and above, maybe lowering the buy-in on the 1-2 to £100 and having a session charge for the 2-5 and above games, especially the DC and Omaha.....

A 50xbb cap on the 1/2 is a horrible idea to me. Means everyone needs to gamble to get a decent stack, and then soon people are sat with a hundred or two hundred BBs after a short while, but anyone joining the game is deterred by the ludicrously small cap. Or if someone is stacked, they then have to buy in short and start shoving with all sorts just to get back into the game.

Also not sure why the .50/1 game should be scrapped, as the players in that are unlikely to play the 1/1 game or sit at the 1/2 games?

I think the current spread of games makes sense. I think the changing around of the games has affected numbers and what it needs is a period of consistency. With the dedicated cash game manager in place I'm sure that's what will happen.

[redsimon]

A while back I played at DTD in a 2/5 game and two of you guys were having a conversation at the table about ICM-based optimal shoving ranges. This is not a good thing. There were two weak spots at the table, and several of you were exchanging 'subtle' knowing looks between yourselves after these weak players showed down hands that they had played terribly. I clocked these glances and it made me cringe inside. Even if the weak players did not see anything (one of them definitely did notice BTW), it demonstrated that you guys do not truly 'get' poker. Start showing the recreational players more respect, and focus more of your energy on providing these guys with what they want. They are your customers, and most of your focus should be on giving them a game that they want to play in. Then everyone wins. And you will have a healthy, vibrant game for years to come.

There's someone who plays at DTD (not one of the Eureka crew)  who takes great pleasure in discussing player's weaknesses and belittling people's play at the table. I know, because he often belittles my play. Wouldn't mind, but I enjoy playing against him because his game is a million miles away from where he thinks it is and I don't think I've ever seen him win a cash session and I've certainly taken more from him the other way round.

He's also fascinated by "who is the best" and criticising players,most of whom I'd suggest are better and more successful than he is.

Anyway, he's an extreme example but it would be worth some of the pros stepping back to watch as an impartial observer to try and see how others view the players and the games. Alex, you mentioned that people don't sit with thousands at the 1/2 game very often, but that's the perception many have - so where does it come from? Surely the perception is all that matters.

Didn't realise you played with Carla Goddard

[smashedagain]

Look at any cash games that have been able to run for years and you see that what Stu says is spot on. Down the years In Hull Chris the Russian, Terry the Sausage and Pat, in Leeds George and Lawrence and in Manchester JP, Lee and Stu all understood this concept. Admittedly these games are all pre dick measuring style really took off but all those guys understood that for the long term benefit of the game they had to make the other players enjoy the game.
Guys have lost hundreds of thousands of £ to these regs and you still won't hear many people have a bad word to say about any of them.

On the flip side you have the odd person in the game that gets slagged off, usually the whale who rubs the bluff in the rec players noses continually makes them feel uncomfortable and does not understand that he pisses these people off then they don't come back. The guys in the know want these types in the game but I know that the above mentioned guys would love the whales to lose it quietly.

[tikay]

A while back I played at DTD in a 2/5 game and two of you guys were having a conversation at the table about ICM-based optimal shoving ranges. This is not a good thing. There were two weak spots at the table, and several of you were exchanging 'subtle' knowing looks between yourselves after these weak players showed down hands that they had played terribly. I clocked these glances and it made me cringe inside. Even if the weak players did not see anything (one of them definitely did notice BTW), it demonstrated that you guys do not truly 'get' poker. Start showing the recreational players more respect, and focus more of your energy on providing these guys with what they want. They are your customers, and most of your focus should be on giving them a game that they want to play in. Then everyone wins. And you will have a healthy, vibrant game for years to come.

There's someone who plays at DTD (not one of the Eureka crew)  who takes great pleasure in discussing player's weaknesses and belittling people's play at the table. I know, because he often belittles my play. Wouldn't mind, but I enjoy playing against him because his game is a million miles away from where he thinks it is and I don't think I've ever seen him win a cash session and I've certainly taken more from him the other way round. He's also fascinated by "who is the best" and criticising players,most of whom I'd suggest are better and more successful than he is. Anyway, he's an extreme example but it would be worth some of the pros stepping back to watch as an impartial observer to try and see how others view the players and the games. Alex, you mentioned that people don't sit with thousands at the 1/2 game very often, but that's the perception many have - so where does it come from? Surely the perception is all that matters.

I'm afraid that sort of thing is all too common, especially from one or two of the more deluded individuals.

We see it on blonde, guys rolling their eyes & lolling at what THEY think are inferior players.  Then they throw the strop when they lose to "these idiots".

This, by the bye, is NOT levelled at the Eureka boys, or Alex's gang. They have manners, social graces, & know their standing.

Their only perceived sin at DTD is that to outsiders, they LOOK a bit cliquey, so people are or may be reluctant to sit-in.