Prose from a Poshboy

[Tal]

For as long as you play on the same table, someone will perceive it as being cliquey.

For as long as you laugh and joke, side bet and record, someone will perceive it as being cliquey.

It is unavoidable, so there are two ways of handling it (at least maturely!):

1. Accept that some people will be drawn in by the excitement and come along to share the fun, accepting also that there will be others - equally justifiably - who will be turned off by the same japery, joshing and repartee;

2. Monitor and review your actions, then monitor and review others' reactions. Recognise when people might take issue with what has happened, when the game next to you is watching and so is the comp three levels away. It's one more thing on top of everything else you monitor during and between hands as pro players anyway. Reflect on the night's work the next morning/afternoon and take any actions you feel are right after that.

If I'm not apologising for stuff, I'm doing things I need to apologise for later. I've made some pretty horrific plays etiquette wise at a poker table, but I've also done things that were objectively perfectly normal and rational, which caused terrible, unforeseeable offence to someone present.

Perception is reality, someone much smarter than I said.

From the handful of times I've been at dusk when you were there, I've not seen anything I would take offence at. If I were to make one observation, it would be that you all look very confident at the table. That, in itself, is a turn-off for someone wanting to make money

To both sides and all angles of the debate that has consumed the past however many pages of this blog, I'd just say that feedback is merely data; it is the product of one person's analysis of information and, however tastefully or forcefully delivered, there is a pertinent and relevant message behind it.

That's my last word on all this, anyway.

Alex, more stories and pics, please, including old ones if needs be!

[jgcblack]

For as long as you play on the same table, someone will perceive it as being cliquey.

For as long as you laugh and joke, side bet and record, someone will perceive it as being cliquey.

It is unavoidable, so there are two ways of handling it (at least maturely!):

1. Accept that some people will be drawn in by the excitement and come along to share the fun, accepting also that there will be others - equally justifiably - who will be turned off by the same japery, joshing and repartee;

2. Monitor and review your actions, then monitor and review others' reactions. Recognise when people might take issue with what has happened, when the game next to you is watching and so is the comp three levels away. It's one more thing on top of everything else you monitor during and between hands as pro players anyway. Reflect on the night's work the next morning/afternoon and take any actions you feel are right after that.

If I'm not apologising for stuff, I'm doing things I need to apologise for later. I've made some pretty horrific plays etiquette wise at a poker table, but I've also done things that were objectively perfectly normal and rational, which caused terrible, unforeseeable offence to someone present.

Perception is reality, someone much smarter than I said.

From the handful of times I've been at dusk when you were there, I've not seen anything I would take offence at. If I were to make one observation, it would be that you all look very confident at the table. That, in itself, is a turn-off for someone wanting to make money

To both sides and all angles of the debate that has consumed the past however many pages of this blog, I'd just say that feedback is merely data; it is the product of one person's analysis of information and, however tastefully or forcefully delivered, there is a pertinent and relevant message behind it.

That's my last word on all this, anyway.

Alex, more stories and pics, please, including old ones if needs be!

Just GIQ while you crush every thread..

ffs Lil'dave is enough.. now we've got Tal everywhere...

[rbc_mike]

Honeybadger absolutely crushes blonde, amazing posts. 

[jgcblack]

Honeybadger absolutely crushes blonde, amazing posts. 

since everyone is crushing in blonde.

I'll share this,

Ed Sheeran crushing a live session

[SuuPRlim]

Honeybadger absolutely crushes blonde, amazing posts. 

If you think his posts are long try having a phone conversation with him.

Literally the biggest legend ever <3

In case you never seen him in real life I found a picture of him!

[Tal]

@ jgcblack, you're safe in PHA. That place is like an open-minded-lady bar; I'm only there if I'm lost or looking for directions on how to get away from it.

[TightEnd]

I couldn't find a pic of our Honeybadger on my updates gallery, an elusive man

but for those looking out for him on a cash table, here's a lookalike

[jgcblack]

@ jgcblack, you're safe in PHA. That place is like an open-minded-lady bar; I'm only there if I'm lost or looking for directions on how to get away from it.

ive been enjoying your chess knowledge this week...

[Mitch]

Im pretty much the the only reg that has played the £1/2+ games without hiatus's since DTD opened. During this time ive seen the games demise from 3 tables every night, and 5 or 6 at weekends, to 1 table if were lucky.

As the years have gone by, the amount of new players being introduced into the game has dropped massively. The bad players lost all there money and got fed up, the others decided to move down stakes and try and improve for cheaper, or in some cases, seemingly stop playing all together. The rate in which some of the guys coming into the game were losing was never going to be sustainable, and as Dubai said, there just doesn't seem to be the influx of local businessmen looking to drop a few quid in the games, like there is in London for example. Maybe there is, and they're put off by it being 'only a 1/2' without realising that you could win or lose substantial money in these games quite easily... but to be honest i don't think its that at all, they're probably just not about.

One thing that is for sure, is that players aren't being put off by the bad etiquette or behaviour of the players who regularly play in these games. In all the hours i've spend in the card room, i could count the amount of times ive seen somebody get a bit out of line to new players on one hand, and anyway, Alex has changed now  

I was having a pretty long discussion with Neil Channing about this subject last time i was in London, and he mentioned having the same problems at the Vic. The games are just so much harder to get going than they used to be, and hes got a such a larger player pool and people with more disposable income to work with.

One thing he mentioned, which deffinatley doesn't happen at DTD, is the London regs refusal to play short handed with each other, or their willingness to start a game without a huge fish in it. Maybe that's our problem. We had a meeting with Rob and Simon a while ago to swap ideas about how to get the games going again, and they thought us coming in earlier to get things started might help, so we did, and often sat in a line up with absolutely no value in. But that didn't work, because nobody would join when it was just us anyway so we were wasting our time.

With regards to the whole 'cliquey' thing, i can deffinatley see how it could be perceived. There has been times we've all swanned in together after having been to Nandos, all walk up the ramp together carrying thousands of pounds, laughing and joking then sitting at a table together. If I was to put myself in a new players shoes there, i probably wold be reluctant to sit in the game too. Thats probably all were guilty of to be honest. Anytime a new player joins the game they're pretty much immediately involved in conversation, banter etc. At the end of the day weve all got to know each other pretty well over the hours on end sat at the table with each other, and through off the table stuff, so there's gonna be times an 'in joke' pops up, or were refering to something that happened that some people wouldn't understand, but that could happen anywhere, its just the way it is. In my opinion its just a fact that were all just really good mates. There are so many people who i have met through poker who i would never have even had chance to speak to otherwise, from all walks of lifes, backgrounds, ages etc. After all, poker is a social activity, if the worst thing anyone can hold against us is that were too friendly, then we havent got too much to worry about!

I'm pretty short on ideas of how were gonna be able to change things to get old players back. They all seem to be decided now, the games are 'too big' , 'too many good players', 'too cliquey'etc etc, it feel like its probably gone too far, and the only way it might start again is the regs stopped coming in for a few months. Most of us are only in during weekends now anyway, so it would be interesting to see if games ever ran without any of us there, tbh i doubt they would anyway.

Weve given Tom (cash game manager) some ideas that might kick start things again, and i know hes very keen and has lots of thoughts of his own, so hopefully we will see some of these being put into practice in the very near future before everybody goes and plays that computer-webz poker full time. #boring.

I feel like ive rambled on a bit here without really getting across what i wanted to say, but thought id just add something to the discussion. Dont have the mad skills of Stu or Phil at putting my point across well in text!

[Mitch]

Had an idea that might create a bit of a buzz...

We've been talking about getting this streamed cash game going for a while, howabout having a couple of dedicated nights for people to be able to

'Play poker @ DTD with your friends and family watching live at home'.

All the software and tables etc are in place, could be something like;

Wednesdays: £2/£2 PLO

Friday: £2/£5 NLH

Sundays: 50p/£1 NLH

People could reserve their seat upto a week in advance, then there could be feeder tables for when people leave or go bust, main game reduced or rake free (cheers Rob   ).

Get some 'name' players in to create interest, the odd celebrity, football player, boxer or whatever, all with running commentary, im sure there would be lots of volunteers.

If enough people were watching we could do the 'vote a player off' etc, maybe do some interviews and integrate the community feel, get everyone introducing themselves a bit similar to the sky poker profiles etc.

Deffinatley something that nowhere else offers, and we all know poker players deep down wanna be on tv, especially people like Paul 'Hollywood' Jenkinson!

Could be worth a try? Maybe add a charity element in there too, I know Rob works along side lots of great causes.

[stato_1]

When I play Table Tennis at my club, I'll practise against players leagues above and I don't care if they smash me into oblivion, it's the only way I'll get better. This point was best illustrated when I played a guy 2 leagues below me (blatant brag that there are 2 leagues below me), he was playing really well and got 5 points ahead, but then he turned to me with a look of concern on his face and said "You're not taking it easy on me are you-some of the guys I've played in the higher leagues soft-played me and I HATE IT!"

Don't worry mate, I wasn't going easy at all once I'd let you get your eye in

[stato_1]

also FWIW, Im pretty sure the recession has next to nothing to do with the decline in cash game traffic. Gambling is pretty well known for being an economy which is not really affected by how much income people have.

[stato_1]

You should be spending more of your mental energy thinking about how to create the best possible environment for your customers than you should thinking about how to play your hands.

Whilst your points are so thoughtfully constructed its difficult to argue, I do take slight issue with this. I agree with pretty much everything you said but if I really wanted to make money from this particular game I would be focussing the majority of my energy on trying to become the best reg so that I would win off everyone and then it's irrelevant how good the game is.

This is the wrong way of thinking about things, and the part I bolded is especially incorrect. If your game is bad, it does not matter if you are the most skilled card player in the world... you are not going to make much money. And if you don't have a game, you are not going to make any money at all!

I have spent, and still do spend, more time than most working on improving the card playing part of my skillset. Whilst being very far from a good player, I am not terrible in terms of playing ability as those of you who have read my posts in PHA, or played with me, will know. But really, ability to play your cards well is only a very small part of what it means to be a successful professional poker player. And it is VERY VERY FAR from being the most important factor in your success.

What makes someone a 'good poker player'? Card playing ability is one of the last things I would consider when assessing someone's skills and judging how good they are. A certain level of skill is of course essential. But assuming that base level of skill is in place, other abilities and attributes will have a much bigger influence on a player's ability to make money in the long-term than his skill playing the cards.

Obviously everything I have written about is concerning live cash games. In tournament play and online play it is possible to be extremely successful with a much narrower skillset, mainly just being able to play cards well. Many of the same principles do still apply in tourneys and online, but the effect of them is much more indirect.

Hmm yes this makes sense. I think what I mean is that I really dont see how too much life can be injected into these games so to make money out of them your probably going to just have to beat the regs!

[Fenix35]

Good post Mitch. They do that webcam cash game in one of the east coast casinos in the states called 'live at the bike' which from what I gather is pretty popular.

Also whilst it might not be in the grinders best interest, I personally got bored of full ring live NLHE a few years ago and whereas in 2007-2009 I used to play quite a lot at dtd I pretty much never play cash there any more. For me the games pretty boring so I think it's great having that PLO night on Wednesdays introducing players to other games.
If that expanded to dealers choice too which I think a lot of people would love to play if they gave it a go/learnt some of the games it'd be great. I think as phil said earlier the barriers for new players in dc is way higher than the nl games due to stakes and often the regs in the game. It ran tonight and was great fun!

Anyway as I'm not a 'reg' at the cash tables I think it's worth chiming in IMO people like Mitch, Simon deadman etc. that I've played with do a really really good job of making the game more sociable and fun and interacting with everyone at the table creating an enjoyable atmosphere.

[Fenix35]

also FWIW, Im pretty sure the recession has next to nothing to do with the decline in cash game traffic. Gambling is pretty well known for being an economy which is not really affected by how much income people have.

Disagree Andy. There will always be degenerates that find a way to gamble regardless of their financial situation. But I really do think this is a small % of people that would frequent a club like dtd over a typical casino. I think it's a simple case of less disposable income = less people spending their spare cash playing poker and using their disposable income on cheaper hobbies. Or at least less frequently. There are of course a ton of other factors but I think the recession has had a major impact.