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Author Topic: Book review: The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler and, er, Dave Shoelace  (Read 52082 times)
DaveShoelace
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« Reply #105 on: March 16, 2013, 11:21:14 AM »

Thanks for the kind words Craig and Tikay (the cheques are in the post) Smiley


You're even soliciting thumbs up in your avatar! :p

Rereading, I'm wondering if I came across as a bit harsh and I'm considering just deleting my post. Sometimes I just say what I see. (or think I see).

I am makin my way through the book, a lot of interesting points about learning in it. I can feel my inner inchworm growing...

I have some queries about certain aspects of the book, and its approach, now is probably not the time. I have watched and read a lot of stuff by the author online, I'll admit from a critical (in the positive sense) viewpoint. One of the first videos I saw was from some guy called Tony Kendall who expressed his skeptiicism about the approach, I'm yet to finalize my thoughts on it all. I did start a journal of 'ideas and reflections' on all the issues I thought Tendler and Barry had brought up, and I ended up reading around the ideas quite significantly. Desperate to see what Volume 2 has to say.

Please don't delete the post and no it was not harsh at all. If these were your concerns then they likely are other people's concerns too. Skepticism is as good a marketing opportunity as a good review from my perspective and I appreciate you bringing it up.

If you have specific questions on the content I'm all ears and Jared comes on here too now and then.
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Doobs
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« Reply #106 on: March 16, 2013, 11:28:20 AM »

simples, just buy the book, i have gone on a huge upswong since it has sat on my bookcase, the likes of dooby wooby on here have taken down GUKPT's after Ft'ing Sunday majors all on the back of using this book as a mouse mat!

unless you are a plant, it is a no brainer! it pays for itself.

I can confirm that craigbetts is right.  I bought the book late last year.  In December I final tabled the poker million on stars. In March I was 2nd in the GUKPT London. 

I really should read beyond the first chapter.
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Most of the bets placed so far seem more like hopeful punts rather than value spots
Marky147
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« Reply #107 on: March 16, 2013, 11:32:17 AM »

Just got the audiobook, but lasted about 5minutes listening to that guy talking and think I will just read the book instead Cheesy
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vegaslover
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« Reply #108 on: March 16, 2013, 12:29:22 PM »


I would recommend this book to anyone with an interest in poker, on face value it does appear a tad pricey but as mentioned it really will benefit your outlook/mindset. Good luck at the tables and let us know how you go on.

Just to add to this, for a reference book I actually think it's cheap.
IMO it also sits pretty well as a psychology text book for all walks in life, not just poker
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johnkeen
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« Reply #109 on: March 17, 2013, 01:19:25 PM »

 Click to see full-size image.

http://i.imgur.com/deh2iVy.jpg

Of all the 5-tar reviews submitted over 3 years, almost half (15) occur during a Golden eight day period between 7-15 June 2011. There are clusters within this cluster, 5 reviews were submitted on 8th June 2011 alone.

Most of the reviews (13 out of 15) submitted during this golden eight days were by usernames who had reviewed no other item, before or since.

Amazon have a system called 'Amazon Verified Purchase', each review has one or it does not. You can submit a review to Amazon without having purchased the thing you are reviewing there. You may have purchased it elsewhere, or not. One would ask why you wourd visit Amazon to write a review for an item you have not purchased there.
However, overall, the AVP badge is one more indicator of the likelihood of a given review having been written by a random punter as opposed to someone with a financial interest in whipping up sales. The latter is likely not to go through a purchase for each review, when they have the option to review without purhase.
That said, we look at the period outwith the Golden 8 days, and a wopping 85 percent of the reviews are from Amazon Verified Purchases. Conversely, we look at the 15 purchases in the Golden Eight days, and not one is from an Amazon Verified Purchase, 0%. This is statistically significant and shows that with a very high degree of probability, there was something else going on with the reviews during the Golden Eight days that differentiates them from the reviews outwith that period of time. Combining that with the clustering, and the lack of other purchases, I still find it very hard to believe that these reviews were by random punters, or even just someone 'asked to write a review wherever they had bought the book'. Far more likely that tbey have been written not each by a unique sale, but by someone sitting down just bashing out reviews. Their tone and style looks the same. They cluster by date and the operation appears to be concerted.
Those are the facts. You can draw your own conclusions.

 Click to see full-size image.


http://i.imgur.com/l9AFQmi.jpg
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 01:24:57 PM by johnkeen » Logged
Doobs
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« Reply #110 on: March 17, 2013, 02:20:49 PM »

 Click to see full-size image.

http://i.imgur.com/deh2iVy.jpg

Of all the 5-tar reviews submitted over 3 years, almost half (15) occur during a Golden eight day period between 7-15 June 2011. There are clusters within this cluster, 5 reviews were submitted on 8th June 2011 alone.

Most of the reviews (13 out of 15) submitted during this golden eight days were by usernames who had reviewed no other item, before or since.

Amazon have a system called 'Amazon Verified Purchase', each review has one or it does not. You can submit a review to Amazon without having purchased the thing you are reviewing there. You may have purchased it elsewhere, or not. One would ask why you wourd visit Amazon to write a review for an item you have not purchased there.
However, overall, the AVP badge is one more indicator of the likelihood of a given review having been written by a random punter as opposed to someone with a financial interest in whipping up sales. The latter is likely not to go through a purchase for each review, when they have the option to review without purhase.
That said, we look at the period outwith the Golden 8 days, and a wopping 85 percent of the reviews are from Amazon Verified Purchases. Conversely, we look at the 15 purchases in the Golden Eight days, and not one is from an Amazon Verified Purchase, 0%. This is statistically significant and shows that with a very high degree of probability, there was something else going on with the reviews during the Golden Eight days that differentiates them from the reviews outwith that period of time. Combining that with the clustering, and the lack of other purchases, I still find it very hard to believe that these reviews were by random punters, or even just someone 'asked to write a review wherever they had bought the book'. Far more likely that tbey have been written not each by a unique sale, but by someone sitting down just bashing out reviews. Their tone and style looks the same. They cluster by date and the operation appears to be concerted.
Those are the facts. You can draw your own conclusions.

 Click to see full-size image.


http://i.imgur.com/l9AFQmi.jpg

If I were going to make a post such as this, I'd check when the amazon verified purchase began on amazon.co.uk.  If I didn't do that, I'd run the risk of making a bad conclusion from the evidence presented. 



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Most of the bets placed so far seem more like hopeful punts rather than value spots
johnkeen
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« Reply #111 on: March 17, 2013, 02:28:52 PM »

If I were going to make a post such as this, I'd check when the amazon verified purchase began on amazon.co.uk.  If I didn't do that, I'd run the risk of making a bad conclusion from the evidence presented. 





My posts and graphs all relate only to reviews and purchases on Amazon.com, not Amazon.co.uk.
When I first saw the data, your point came to mind, and I checked...Amazon Verified Purchase was going way before this book was published.
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Marky147
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« Reply #112 on: March 17, 2013, 02:30:40 PM »

You must have more spare time on your hands than me John Cheesy
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DaveShoelace
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« Reply #113 on: March 17, 2013, 02:39:59 PM »

The book was actually released in April that year, but only became available direct from amazon in may,  and as previously mentioned we actively encouraged people on social media to post review - however we never asked them to give is five star or tell them what to write. That may also account why there may be some unverfied purchases.

The cluster of early reviews is as much a bi product of how heavily we marketed the book in the first 3-6 months than anything else. We had a lot of people eagerly purchase the book in the first month and we also did tons of marketing, guest articles, magazine articles, interviews, webinars etc.

I have nothing to hide, I won't be trying to get your posts removed and have never done anything shady, with this book or my day to day work, of this nature. The book has sold very well, not because we manipulated anything, but because people liked it and told their friends.

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horseplayer
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« Reply #114 on: March 17, 2013, 02:48:52 PM »

firstly i have never read the book (or plan to) and have no affiliation with the authors

why do you care john?

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johnkeen
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« Reply #115 on: March 17, 2013, 02:56:04 PM »

The book was actually released in April that year, but only became available direct from amazon in may,  and as previously mentioned we actively encouraged people on social media to post review - however we never asked them to give is five star or tell them what to write. That may also account why there may be some unverfied purchases.

The cluster of early reviews is as much a bi product of how heavily we marketed the book in the first 3-6 months than anything else. We had a lot of people eagerly purchase the book in the first month and we also did tons of marketing, guest articles, magazine articles, interviews, webinars etc.


I have nothing to hide, I won't be trying to get your posts removed and have never done anything shady, with this book or my day to day work, of this nature. The book has sold very well, not because we manipulated anything, but because people liked it and told their friends.

Intense marketing in the early days, eager buyers and a vague review solicitation would produce some skewing and a little clustering in the results, maybe. However that kind of thing would produce nothing like this. Why would there be intense clustering over 8 days? Why would there be such intense clustering on one of these days? Why would all reviews in that week be from purchases unverified by Amazon, when most outside that date are verified? Why would most of these people log in just to review that one book, on a site they don't appear to have bought it from, and then never review another one there? Why would they all write in that style? Why would they go to the effort of setting up accounts on a site where they probably hadn't bought it, just to write a review designed to specifically encourage the audience to buy?
To be honest, I'm not querying your honesty, I would not believe someone if they told me you had anything to do with this. I'm not interested in this turning out to be one thing or another. Many of the reviews just look really weird to me, and that's the only reason why I asked. If many people pay a decent sum for the book, often on the back of very positive reviews, I think this exercise is perfectly legitimate.
I did see other reviews for this book on amazon specifically targetting this very issue. I saw one of them (one star) removed, and another query their authenticity, which was replied to, but not addressed by, the author. So I thought I'd bring it up here.
The facts remain unexplained...I did ask, without the graphs, sorry.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 03:05:11 PM by johnkeen » Logged
johnkeen
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« Reply #116 on: March 17, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »

firstly i have never read the book (or plan to) and have no affiliation with the authors

why do you care john?



Firstly because whether the reviews are legitimate or not are of interest to me just for curiosity value, and secondly when I look at how many people are handing over fairly decent sums based partly on reviews they see on amazon, when anyone can write those reviews, and the reviews look questionable to me, then I'll go ahead and ask the question. In those other online reviews , which lead to a lot of sales, and where a large number of reviews were fake (30 percent, I believe), the perpetrators were relying on posts like mine not being made. I'm not saying anything like that happened here. And I'm certainly not pointing fingers at Barry Carter. I just wrote out what facts I saw, and asked how they could be explained. I
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Marky147
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« Reply #117 on: March 17, 2013, 03:18:01 PM »

If this is the trouble you go to before buying a book for twenty quid, booking a holiday or buying a motor must be a nightmare  Grin
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johnkeen
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« Reply #118 on: March 17, 2013, 03:20:14 PM »

If this is the trouble you go to before buying a book for twenty quid, booking a holiday or buying a motor must be a nightmare  Grin

There was no foundation to that restraining order by Jeremy Clarkson and you know it :p

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DaveShoelace
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« Reply #119 on: March 17, 2013, 03:28:13 PM »

I do recall a few one star reviews which were removed. In one instance it was a guy who in his first line admitted he hadn't bought the book, in another the person in question had been posting links to his own book and had done so on numerous popular poker books. At the time I actually said to Jared we should report them to Amazon but he disagreed and said he thought it was better for him to respond and address any concerns other people may have.
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