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The Rail
Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
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Topic: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations (Read 40389 times)
MANTIS01
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What kind of fuckery is this?
Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #195 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:13:32 PM »
People who study the game, play thousands of hands, and use online poker forums like you guys make up the top % of poker players in this country. But the vast majority of poker players are part-time and work in a fish shop or drive taxis. You organised and switched on people itt have already said you should and would take full advantage of the info on offer if you can, and no doubt some will seek to do so properly in the future. The collusion issue and security thing isn't the major issue anyway. The most important issue is the customer experience. I can tell you as a recreational player if I finished work and drove to DTD on my own and invested a few days playing hard in this event I would be feelin good about making the FT. But every break when I see my full-time oppos and their mates huddling up to discuss how I play I wouldn't be happy and would feel disadvantaged.
Especially because I wouldn't have planned to access that info (like every other recreational player in the room). It's all very well if the advantage runs in your favour like it would for the top % but the majority would feel disadvantaged. Lots wont have a clue about live streaming and internet stuff, they'll only know that you came back from the break with info about their hands and will feel at a disadvantage. Considering we are already at a disadvantage any measure which widens the gap or even appears to widen the gap in inexperienced players eyes is a bad thing. I know op made a fuck up but no doubt he was one such player who felt disadvantaged and whilst he didn't express himself very well he did feel the emotion I describe. A measure that alienates the majority of less skillful players benefits poker how? It's easy to say don't come if you don't like it but if this becomes norm in other casinos then where would fish play and feel comfortable?
And yeah I don't trust some Germans in a booth or whatever in Nottingham. Why should I? I've already trusted honey monster Lederer with my dollar this year.
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cambridgealex
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#lovethegame
Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #196 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:18:54 PM »
Richard "dik" has just given me a one round penalty from this bowl freeze at DTD. Its an absolute farce and renders all his previous points nonsensical and invalid imo.
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sovietsong
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #197 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:24:01 PM »
Quote from: cambridgealex on July 27, 2011, 11:18:54 PM
Richard "dik" has just given me a one round penalty from this bowl freeze at DTD. Its an absolute farce and renders all his previous points nonsensical and invalid imo.
what happened?
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In the category of Funniest Poster I nominate sovietsong. - mantis 21/12/2012
cambridgealex
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#lovethegame
Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #198 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:24:55 PM »
Caught using my phone to get info from the live stream.
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sovietsong
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #199 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:25:49 PM »
Quote from: cambridgealex on July 27, 2011, 11:24:55 PM
Caught using my phone to get info from the live stream.
whats wrong with that, isnt that the reason for the live stream to give info to everybody?
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In the category of Funniest Poster I nominate sovietsong. - mantis 21/12/2012
dik9
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #200 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:28:34 PM »
I went POWER CRAZYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
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sovietsong
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #201 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:31:40 PM »
Quote from: cambridgealex on July 27, 2011, 11:24:55 PM
Caught using my phone to get info from the live stream.
I thought you must have done the old "raise... I mean call" with the nuts.
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In the category of Funniest Poster I nominate sovietsong. - mantis 21/12/2012
dik9
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #202 on:
July 27, 2011, 11:32:15 PM »
Waiting to be sued .....
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Cardroom Manager, Genting International Casino, Resorts World Birmingham
Boba Fett
Doctor of Thugonomics
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Pain is Temporary!
Re: YOU SIR, ARE A COWARD.....
«
Reply #203 on:
July 28, 2011, 12:49:25 AM »
Quote from: MANTIS01 on July 27, 2011, 08:33:46 PM
1. Hole card commentary live. The commentators were in a room in the cashier area of the DTD building. As anybody involved in casinos can tell you, that is the HARDEST place to gain access to in the whole building. No way in hell was JP Kelly getting out to tell the rail what so-and-so had. On top of that, he was supervised by 3 people at all times. Doubt he's slipping his phone out to make a quick text.
You only need to plant a mic in the commentary booth a few days before kick off to make the above irrelevant. Let's try and stay one step ahead of grimtown boys.
I think if this thread proves 1 thing it shows that Mantis will think of some ridiculous idea to get around any situation. Im half expecting his next "what if" to be something along the lines of using the Bill and Ted time travelling phone booth to go back in time to plant everything required to fully cheat and see the hole cards in real time.
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DTD-ACES
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #204 on:
July 28, 2011, 03:03:10 AM »
Hi All
Interesting thread.
Just thought i would give my opinion.
Alex had a few rallers throughout the final, this included the likes of James Keys, Keith Johnson and Nick Hicks, all excellent players. I have no doubt whatsoever any advice they could give him at a break eg try limping when heads up would be far more valuable than any information relating to a hand played 30 minutes before. These guys may have collectively spotted a " tell " on a player for example.
Breaks were every 2 hours so with the 30 minute delay the only relevent hands could be those taking place 30 minutes earlier as anything prior to that the table dynamics would have changed considerably, eg a player has been knocked out changing your position on the table, stack sizes have changed, blinds have increased etc.
I did at least 2 hours commenatary, during that time i didn't need to see hole cards to know if a player was tight, was liable to fold his blinds, was only trying to ladder or was the most aggressive player on the table. I also saw that as you would expect the dynamics of the table changed as it became short handed and the quality of play meant a blind may be defended with A5s then the same hand would be folded in the cut off, in other words the players adapted and played big pairs and took opportunities to raise differently depending on stack size, position etc, how they played a hand 30 minutes or 1 hour before was irrelevant and anyone who thought that knowing that a player bluffed during a certain hand was goimg to help them make a decision later would have been disappointed.
A standard raise was nearly always a min raise so no information there, you can pick up a lot more from the rail watching to see how a player bets, whether he cuts the chips down or stacks them up, how he sits in his chair after making the bet, whether his pulse is visible, does he start talking, is his leg bobbing up and down or stopped when it normally is, does he stare at the flop when he has missed, glanced down at his chips prior to betting, ask a question before raising etc etc.
So, in my opinion, being able to access information from the stream and know whether you made a good laydown or not 30 minutes later is not going to help you as a poker game is fluid, however having extra sets of knowledgable eyes gaining information and imparting this during a break is an advantage but surely in every sport this is what happens ? Managers, coaches looking for weaknesses in their opponents to exploit.
Discuss.
Cheers
ACES
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Boba Fett
Doctor of Thugonomics
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Pain is Temporary!
Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #205 on:
July 28, 2011, 04:07:50 AM »
Quote from: DTD-ACES on July 28, 2011, 03:03:10 AM
Alex had a few rallers throughout the final, this included the likes of James Keys, Keith Johnson and Nick Hicks, all excellent players. I have no doubt whatsoever any advice they could give him at a break eg try limping when heads up would be far more valuable than any information relating to a hand played 30 minutes before. These guys may have collectively spotted a " tell " on a player for example.
Alex is clearly cheating and, at the very least, hugely advantaged by having such a rail, amateurs like Mantis will be put off travelling to a tournament and getting to day 3, just to go up against someone like Alex with a rail of quality players and being able to talk to them on breaks while he is on his "Jack Jones" with no rail, as are other amateur players or players that travelled from afar. I think its clear that in future at these tournaments and tournaments at all levels, for the sake of poker, having friends should be banned! Having those friends on the rail should be banned! and being able to talk to them on breaks should absolutely be banned at all costs!!!!
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cambridgealex
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#lovethegame
Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #206 on:
July 28, 2011, 05:17:12 AM »
Cos it's not a funny joke.
It's one of the worst things to be accused of in this business. Even if everyone who's responded knows it's a joke, there's still people that'll stumble across posts like that, or people will overhear the joke being repeated (it's become an in-joke now unfortunately) that will then have that word associated with me.
I take almost all banter in my stride, you know that, but I really don't find this one funny.
Sorry to be a poof.
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Longines
Gamesmaster
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #207 on:
July 28, 2011, 06:02:36 AM »
Quote from: DTD-ACES on July 28, 2011, 03:03:10 AM
So, in my opinion, being able to access information from the stream and know whether you made a good laydown or not 30 minutes later is not going to help you as a poker game is fluid
So you wouldn't be against showing the delayed feed on the screens in the club?
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MANTIS01
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Posts: 6734
What kind of fuckery is this?
Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #208 on:
July 28, 2011, 09:30:45 AM »
Quote from: Longines on July 28, 2011, 06:02:36 AM
Quote from: DTD-ACES on July 28, 2011, 03:03:10 AM
So, in my opinion, being able to access information from the stream and know whether you made a good laydown or not 30 minutes later is not going to help you as a poker game is fluid
So you wouldn't be against showing the delayed feed on the screens in the club?
Very good.
Feed shown on screens in the club gives everone equal access to the info so this would be fine right?
I once had to bug my office and my buddy who works in surveillance put it in a plug socket. Totally invisible and bingo I could hear everything and could access it at any time. In a feckin plug socket. Perhaps I am paranoid cos of this experience but I don't think such technology is like a time machine Boba. It's not lol ridic that people bug rooms when there's info they want in there. Why else would you bug a room? No idea why commentary has to be live.
Sorry Simon but your post about what makes a good poker player from your point of view is pretty nuts. You are addressing people as a poker player rather than as the host of a venue. Stelios from the fish bar sits back down after the break and another player says I know you had K-K that last hand you fish. Stelios is real unhappy cos he doesn't want his oppos in the current game knowing that sort of stuff. Your answer to him is a good player can pick up tells and stuff if they pay attention and that you thought it was obv he had K-K anyway without seeing his cards. Don't get how you've addressed your customer's unhappiness with the situation really.
Boba, are you happy to show your cards if I don't?
Can Simon confirm to members that you don't have to show if you don't want to. If I can get that confirmation I don't need to bother arguing any more anyways.
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GreekStein
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Re: Live feeds and hole cards: Ethics and considerations
«
Reply #209 on:
July 28, 2011, 09:34:53 AM »
Quote from: cambridgealex on July 28, 2011, 05:17:12 AM
Cos it's not a funny joke.
It's one of the worst things to be accused of in this business. Even if everyone who's responded knows it's a joke, there's still people that'll stumble across posts like that, or people will overhear the joke being repeated (it's become an in-joke now unfortunately) that will then have that word associated with me.
I take almost all banter in my stride, you know that, but I really don't find this one funny.
Sorry to be a poof.
After that win you're not allowed to not enjoy everything for about 2 weeks or until the next time you get Mitch'd in a cash game.
Anyway, I've deleted the joke.
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