DTD 300- Tough spot or easiest fold ever

[smashedagain]

I think thread concludes it's certainly a tough spot and no it's not the easiest fold ever. Close either way.

Two kings left in if he does have dem aces anyway. Ppl seem to have forgotten this. Ul not to get there IMO. 2left in and you only had to hit one. 50/50 init.

I was convinced I was the biggest donko ever for calling there and players like the Monte Carlo Champion would make an easy fold. I feel a lot better now

do i have to do the post your hendonmob versus his hendonmob thing

[leethefish]

as leefish is still in the tourney and is your traveling partner/friend i think you should maybe ask him. as it stands if he takes it down today he is gonna tell you how bad you are then punch your face in at the celebration party anyway. please be ready

i already told him my view but then again i getting more and more like him busting with aq all the time....

[Cf]

I think Mantis makes a good point. The villain hasn't just 3-bet here. He's 3-bet from his big blind. If the villain is as bad as George says then I think his 3-betting range is wider from his big blind than it might be from a better position.

That said though, once he jams that turn I think it becomes a fold. We may well suspect him of just standing up to us preflop. And he may fire again on the flop. But i'm not convinced he shoves that turn without the goods. You called pre. You called on the flop. He has to figure there's a good chance of you calling now.

[Nico29]

I cert don't think this is an easy fold.

Why can't a fish who plays a10 like a set on a ten high board deep not play ak/aq/aj or even his fave a10 this way, especially if he sees any of them are sooooooted??

Why can't the fish spazz with jj-kk? Can he ever be semi-bluffing a fd here? Cant think of many tho cos of that important blocker.

Why do ppl not give such fish credit for spazzing lots in this kinda spot? Fish get real stubborn, they just explode in hands like these.

Why aren't we ever 4betting pre for value against this donk with ak and position? I'm expecting to be lol'd @here but i know online v such a player i'd be 4b fistpump snapping his 5b jammage.

I guess most nits just do this with qq/kk+ here, for me i'll include ak too against such a potential spazz merchannnnnnnnt.

Why do i keep saying why?

I dunno i'm loving life on the flop and i'm hoping he'll spazz the turn, i gen think live in something pretty shooty late on i'm overjoyed to stack off here. I think ppl overcomplicate the simple.

Agree if i haven't seen the a10 hand i'll often fold this turn v unknown.

I see keys says it's a trivial fold v this oppo. Interested to hear his opinion why.

[MANTIS01]

If villain 3bet lag hero from his blind with  or  or or he flops the fd and adds a str8 draw on the turn when he doesn't shake hero off with his overbet. I don't know how villain plays semi-bluffs from the single A-10 hand, but I do see a lot of fish overbetting draws, esp oop when they've been caught, they just don't slow down. I would at least think about these hands so don't see why the fold is trivial and don't see how one hand provides many reliable tendancies for this villain.

[Boba Fett]

If villain 3bet lag hero from his blind with  or  or or he flops the fd and adds a str8 draw on the turn when he doesn't shake hero off with his overbet. I don't know how villain plays semi-bluffs from the single A-10 hand, but I do see a lot of fish overbetting draws, esp oop when they've been caught, they just don't slow down. I would at least think about these hands so don't see why the fold is trivial and don't see how one hand provides many reliable tendancies for this villain.

Why would he 3bet any of those hands?  From the description of the player it sounds like he would flat these in the blinds pretty much 100% of the time.  At which point in the thread has this player become a 3betting maniac from oop?

[MANTIS01]

If villain 3bet lag hero from his blind with  or  or or he flops the fd and adds a str8 draw on the turn when he doesn't shake hero off with his overbet. I don't know how villain plays semi-bluffs from the single A-10 hand, but I do see a lot of fish overbetting draws, esp oop when they've been caught, they just don't slow down. I would at least think about these hands so don't see why the fold is trivial and don't see how one hand provides many reliable tendancies for this villain.

Why would he 3bet any of those hands?  From the description of the player it sounds like he would flat these in the blinds pretty much 100% of the time.  At which point in the thread has this player become a 3betting maniac from oop?

He would 3bet those hands because he thinks hero's out of line, the fact it's his blind, he feels deep enough to afford it, because calling is bad with those hands, and because he's playing poker. The description of the player is he's awful and plays top pair strongly so at what point itt do we learn that he's never capable of this?

[outragous76]

If villain 3bet lag hero from his blind with  or  or or he flops the fd and adds a str8 draw on the turn when he doesn't shake hero off with his overbet. I don't know how villain plays semi-bluffs from the single A-10 hand, but I do see a lot of fish overbetting draws, esp oop when they've been caught, they just don't slow down. I would at least think about these hands so don't see why the fold is trivial and don't see how one hand provides many reliable tendancies for this villain.

Why would he 3bet any of those hands?  From the description of the player it sounds like he would flat these in the blinds pretty much 100% of the time.  At which point in the thread has this player become a 3betting maniac from oop?

He would 3bet those hands because he thinks hero's out of line, the fact it's his blind, he feels deep enough to afford it, because calling is bad with those hands, and because he's playing poker. The description of the player is he's awful and plays top pair strongly so at what point itt do we learn that he's never capable of this?

wrong!

[Boba Fett]

If villain 3bet lag hero from his blind with  or  or or he flops the fd and adds a str8 draw on the turn when he doesn't shake hero off with his overbet. I don't know how villain plays semi-bluffs from the single A-10 hand, but I do see a lot of fish overbetting draws, esp oop when they've been caught, they just don't slow down. I would at least think about these hands so don't see why the fold is trivial and don't see how one hand provides many reliable tendancies for this villain.

Why would he 3bet any of those hands?  From the description of the player it sounds like he would flat these in the blinds pretty much 100% of the time.  At which point in the thread has this player become a 3betting maniac from oop?

He would 3bet those hands because he thinks hero's out of line, the fact it's his blind, he feels deep enough to afford it, because calling is bad with those hands, and because he's playing poker. The description of the player is he's awful and plays top pair strongly so at what point itt do we learn that he's never capable of this?

Is he your friend and told you this?  Or are you just making it up?

It depends. Obv he seems cally more than aggro, how old is he? wots he wearing? wots his banter? as a default i'd probably call (don't hero fold vs fish). Not sure i buy into the concept of fold because there are better spots, dtd 300 isn't the wsop main and is rather turbo-y.

Youngish but nothing to suggest he's decent or 3 betting wide which is why I'm on the Boba/Sykes/LilDave camp even tho I called. I mean he played the hand like a tard and probs got called by the only worse hand he was ever going to get called by. His bomb on the turn was probably cos there's two hearts on board

Obv its possible he can be going crazy with a suited connector or just felt like going for it with 72, its possible he is overdue to take his meds but given the information provided it is massively more likely he flats most of his range in the BB than randomly defending the honour of his BB. 

[MANTIS01]

Also don't know why he can't have suited KQ. We know he overvalues hands and we know he overbets top pair.

[outragous76]

Also don't know why he can't have suited KQ. We know he overvalues hands and we know he overbets top pair.

because is on board

[cambridgealex]

Mantis you're totally missing the difference between the AT hand and this hand. Villain as described he'll never have suited connectors or KQ here. He will 100% just peel with those hands.

Fish see that as taking a stand.

[MANTIS01]

Yah I agree I'm missing how we know villain will 100% peel with all these hands from that one hand.

What you guys are "totally missing" is villain's mentality is totally different in this hand to the A-10 hand. When you get your chips in well beat and spike a miracle on the river it can change your attitude. You feel like you're freerolling and should be out the comp. This can make you looser and more adventurous with all your new spending chips until you lose a few. Not saying that happened here but also not submitting I know 100% how villain is thinking right now from that one hand before. However, I would like to learn how we know all this and how it's 100% a trivial fold.

[outragous76]

Yah I agree I'm missing how we know villain will 100% peel with all these hands from that one hand.

What you guys are "totally missing" is villain's mentality is totally different in this hand to the A-10 hand. When you get your chips in well beat and spike a miracle on the river it can change your attitude. You feel like you're freerolling and should be out the comp. This can make you looser and more adventurous with all your new spending chips until you lose a few. Not saying that happened here but also not submitting I know 100% how villain is thinking right now from that one hand before. However, I would like to learn how we know all this and how it's 100% a trivial fold.

experience of playing live poker!

Mantis - I know you like to play devils advocate, and "be right" or "not proven wrong", but to be honest PHA is not the place to do it - its frankly quite tedious

[Nit Tendencies]

Mantis, no offence, but anyone can just make up ranges for people to justify a call. Maybe he's 3bet and is going mental because we're out of line? But probably not ey.

It's really easy to convince yourself that a fish is adapting to us being aggro or whatever, but the truth is they don't adapt nearly as much as you think they do, they just have it.

It's a much bigger mistake to assume he's got a really wide 3bet range and therefore a semi/bluff and a bluff range in this spot than it is to assume he's got a tight range because we're getting such a shit price on the turn when he jams for over 2x pot.

I'm not sure what you play regularly mantis, and I'm sure you're very good at it, but you do seem to be just making things up to reinforce your argument. Making wild assumptions about him 3betting out of the big, and then even wilder assumptions about how he subconsciously adapts to things that have happened earlier is ludicrous. You're going to make so many more mistakes thinking like this, than just thinking about the hand in terms of value and equity because at the end of the day all this guy is thinking is "OMG I HOPE MY ACES DON'T GET OUTDRAWN!"