River spot with two purrs

[cambridgealex]

Folding pre would be insane. Turn seems really read dependent.

My read was I felt he could be raising worse two pairs on the turn.

Don't think he's ever value betting the river with worse.

[david3103]

Folding pre would be insane. Turn seems really read dependent.

My read was I felt he could be raising worse two pairs on the turn.

Don't think he's ever value betting the river with worse.

Any thoughts on shoving/re-raising the turn based on your read at that point?

[cambridgealex]

Folding pre would be insane. Turn seems really read dependent.

My read was I felt he could be raising worse two pairs on the turn.

Don't think he's ever value betting the river with worse.

Any thoughts on shoving/re-raising the turn based on your read at that point?

He'd probs get away from all worse hands if I did that, then snap with straights.

[david3103]

Folding pre would be insane. Turn seems really read dependent.

My read was I felt he could be raising worse two pairs on the turn.

Don't think he's ever value betting the river with worse.

Any thoughts on shoving/re-raising the turn based on your read at that point?

He'd probs get away from all worse hands if I did that, then snap with straights.

So, and I'm looking to learn here too, what changed your mind on the river?
Just the sense that he never bets the river on this board without something better than two pair?
Or did you call and we're waiting for the reveal?

Based on a pretty small sample of playing with Sunny at Aspers Northampton last year I doubt he's limping the button with a lot of the hands that would beat you.

[TheFallen]

is jhe capable of turning q10/qk into a bluff here?

in theory but don't seem him ever raising the turn with those hands.

why did you bet £25 on the turn. seems to me like that has caused a lot of problems

cos i has a strong two pair. surely a clear spot for a value bet?

was questioning why you bet £25 rather than why bet at all

[Whollyflush]

Also don't ever fold Q9 pre for £1 in these games.

The problem isn't are immediate odds, its both finding it very differcult extracting value when we hit (we start betting into 4 players, alarm bells!) or with drawing hands we find it differcult to ever realise our equity as a vast % of the time someone else will hit the flop hard and not allow us to realise our equity. Im thoroughly convinced this isn't profitable even if we were sat at a table full of losing players.

At least if we raise to isolate we can win the pot by 1) making the best hand 2) bluffing. Here we need to make the best hand to often, and when your holding Q9o 4way thats going to be differcult. I'd probably only limp along with small pairs any Axs/Kxs. Although i'll likely raise big with 89s+, ATo/KJo type hands to narrow the field.

[GreekStein]

Also don't ever fold Q9 pre for £1 in these games.

The problem isn't are immediate odds, its both finding it very differcult extracting value when we hit (we start betting into 4 players, alarm bells!) or with drawing hands we find it differcult to ever realise our equity as a vast % of the time someone else will hit the flop hard and not allow us to realise our equity. Im thoroughly convinced this isn't profitable even if we were sat at a table full of losing players.

At least if we raise to isolate we can win the pot by 1) making the best hand 2) bluffing. Here we need to make the best hand to often, and when your holding Q9o 4way thats going to be differcult. I'd probably only limp along with small pairs any Axs/Kxs. Although i'll likely raise big with 89s+, ATo/KJo type hands to narrow the field.

everyone will think we're an absolute nit though

[skolsuper]

Think you played it fine, fold now.

@whollyflush, we don't fold pre cos we're getting implied odds to flop even just the nut straight vs smaller straight, look at the effective stacks

[SuuPRlim]

technically i reckon we're sposed to fold preflop but then it's live poker where its joke slow so  I often just pay £1 so I can join in for the next couple of minutes + tell myself not to do the whole £900 on a Qhigh board.

[titaniumbean]

technically i reckon we're sposed to fold preflop but then it's live poker where its joke slow so  I often just pay £1 so I can join in for the next couple of minutes + tell myself not to do the whole £900 on a Qhigh board.

 

[Whollyflush]

Think you played it fine, fold now.

@whollyflush, we don't fold pre cos we're getting implied odds to flop even just the nut straight vs smaller straight, look at the effective stacks

True, but in practice this never happens. Alot of the time we flop something or even top 2 and money goes into the pot without us flopping the str8. We then get excited start to pile money in, the board gets ugly and we face resistance. I suppose what im getting at is we need to be playing so close to perfect postflop, that most of us can't profitably flick in the £1. Completing with a hand weaker than most players limping range in a live game isn't going to make us money.

[pleno1]

fold pre, fold turn, fold now.

[skolsuper]

Think you played it fine, fold now.

@whollyflush, we don't fold pre cos we're getting implied odds to flop even just the nut straight vs smaller straight, look at the effective stacks

True, but in practice this never happens. Alot of the time we flop something or even top 2 and money goes into the pot without us flopping the str8. We then get excited start to pile money in, the board gets ugly and we face resistance. I suppose what im getting at is we need to be playing so close to perfect postflop, that most of us can't profitably flick in the £1.

Don't play bad then? There is a lower bound on our profit in this hand and it is -£1. If we do worse than that on average then we could improve our strategy by simply always checking and folding, hence it is not a good strategy. If we play appropriately postflop, i.e. Very cautiously with bottom 2 pair or less and wary that our opponents will probably expect to have implied odds for all gutshot draws etc on the flop, I am sure we will make a profit on this hand.

Completing with a hand weaker than most players limping range in a live game isn't going to make us money.

So what about 78s? 78o?

[GreekStein]

I disagree that this hand is on average weaker than people's limping range in a 1/2 live game. Ppl limp any 2 fkin cards.

[cambridgealex]

I disagree that this hand is on average weaker than people's limping range in a 1/2 live game. Ppl limp any 2 fkin cards.

Exactly. He can have 94o, J4o Q4o here. He'd literally limp atc on the button after a few limpers.

That's why folding the turn would be terrible because we beat a whole bunch of his value range. On the river he doesn't bet pot with 94 J4 Q4 etc.

I folded and was shown 74o and obviously regretted the decision. I think when he bets pot his range is polarised to KTcc T8cc, I don't think he'd size a bare T8, KT bet size that big, as my hand could easily be a flush and he'd be scared of that. So his value range is so narrow I think I should've called. Sounds so results orientated I know...