2 Preflop spots in 215 WCOOP

[cambridgealex]

1) Cliffs: I min button with , maniac in BB who is a winner @ abi $500 tourneys 3bets playing 29.4 bigs, I jam. OK?

PokerStars Game #68059312970: Tournament #2011090060, $200+$15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVIII (6000/12000) - 2011/09/26 1:30:46 WET [2011/09/25 20:30:46 ET]
Table '2011090060 66' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: PikkuHUMPPA (1627833 in chips)
Seat 2: X-Front (516735 in chips)
Seat 3: 20alex430 (631504 in chips)
Seat 4: 1BIG-CHEEESE (60927 in chips)
Seat 5: Iftarii (352685 in chips)
Seat 6: Sharkomaha (618756 in chips)
Seat 7: VM47 (683444 in chips)
Seat 8: csacsi111 (875925 in chips)
Seat 9: wanderleiii (411804 in chips)
PikkuHUMPPA: posts the ante 1500
X-Front: posts the ante 1500
20alex430: posts the ante 1500
1BIG-CHEEESE: posts the ante 1500
Iftarii: posts the ante 1500
Sharkomaha: posts the ante 1500
VM47: posts the ante 1500
csacsi111: posts the ante 1500
wanderleiii: posts the ante 1500
1BIG-CHEEESE: posts small blind 6000
Iftarii: posts big blind 12000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 20alex430 [ ]
Sharkomaha: folds
VM47: folds
csacsi111: folds
wanderleiii: folds
PikkuHUMPPA: folds
X-Front: folds
20alex430: raises 12000 to 24000
1BIG-CHEEESE: folds
Iftarii: raises 37050 to 61050
20alex430: raises 568954 to 630004 and is all-in

2) Cliffs: Button mins, I shove 23.8 bbs from the sb with K8 suited. OK?

PokerStars Game #68059516781: Tournament #2011090060, $200+$15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVIII (6000/12000) - 2011/09/26 1:37:15 WET [2011/09/25 20:37:15 ET]
Table '2011090060 66' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: PikkuHUMPPA (1629333 in chips)
Seat 2: X-Front (675235 in chips)
Seat 3: 20alex430 (287819 in chips)
Seat 4: 1BIG-CHEEESE (112854 in chips)
Seat 5: Iftarii (552170 in chips)
Seat 6: Sharkomaha (588756 in chips)
Seat 7: VM47 (646517 in chips)
Seat 8: csacsi111 (845925 in chips)
Seat 9: wanderleiii (441004 in chips)
PikkuHUMPPA: posts the ante 1500
X-Front: posts the ante 1500
20alex430: posts the ante 1500
1BIG-CHEEESE: posts the ante 1500
Iftarii: posts the ante 1500
Sharkomaha: posts the ante 1500
VM47: posts the ante 1500
csacsi111: posts the ante 1500
wanderleiii: posts the ante 1500
20alex430: posts small blind 6000
1BIG-CHEEESE: posts big blind 12000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 20alex430 [ ]
Iftarii: folds
Sharkomaha: folds
VM47: folds
csacsi111: folds
wanderleiii: folds
PikkuHUMPPA: folds
X-Front: raises 12000 to 24000
20alex430: raises 262319 to 286319 and is all-in

[George2Loose]

Think both are spewy. Like the first play better than the second tho

[George2Loose]

Actually don't think you're deep enough in first hand.

Just fold both

[cambridgealex]

For 2) If he calls with the following ranges, we have 33.7% equity when called, and therefore need him to fold 60% of the time.

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    33.708%     33.11%    00.60%          77109935      1387425.50   { Ks8s }
Hand 1:    66.292%     65.70%    00.60%         152988558      1387425.50   { 77+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }

77+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo is 11.5% of the range, so he needs to be opening his button >28.5% of the time. Surely a reasonable assumption?

Would he call wider do you think?

[cambridgealex]

For 1) If he calls with the following ranges, we have 32.9% equity when called, and therefore need him to fold 50% of the time.

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    32.961%     30.84%    02.12%          49639276      3414068.50   { Ad4d }
Hand 1:    67.039%     64.92%    02.12%         104489163      3414068.50   { 88+, A9s+, KQs, ATo+ }

He probably isn't 3b/folding 50% of the time here is he...

[Eso Kral]

IMO i think A) is a fold as there are better spots and agree with George on the deep comment

B) I think is fine and after speaking with you at the last deepstack about shove ranges and what Pleno had given me that says you can shove optimally here  22+ K2s+ K6o Q8o+ even as wide as 97o.

Would be interested to see what others say though...

[redarmi]

Don't really like either.  Both could be +EV plays (certainly it is probably close) but you are deep enough to wait for better spots in both cases and pushing too many thin edges in tourneys when you have a skill edge isn't +EV in itself if that makes sense.

[NigDawG]

think both are just about fine. would prefer the first one to be a little deeper but meh its iftari the man likes to 3bet. 2nd one i do not recognise SN doubt the guy is going to call with kj/kq and a8/a9 tbh...unless he just saw u 4bet shove a4s that will change his calling range vs u i guess

[pokerfan]

x-front won it outright.

[Rupert]

1 is whatever 2 is good with no history or anything other than you have 20bbs being the reason he can open

[cambridgealex]

x-front won it outright.

marv

[muckthenuts]

I definitely like the first hand if your image is ok. You have an active 3 bettor that you cover, fold equity, soooted cards and one entire blocker.

[pleno1]

like first, would fodl 2nd.

[PizzicatoXev]

Ditto to the others...

I did notice there are only 7 minutes between hand 1 and hand 2... were any other hands (wtsd or not) played in that time?

[zerofive]

Ditto to the others...

I did notice there are only 7 minutes between hand 1 and hand 2... were any other hands (wtsd or not) played in that time?

Which others? Everybody is saying something different.

Agree with muckthenuts about hand 1. Seems like you might get called wider in hand 2, especially if it looks like you're spewing and he's seen you shove A4.