Fit blondes in Berlin

[technolog]

It also shows that a lot of the time when people think a treatment is helping them feel better or recover it's actually them getting better anyway (apart from, or despite the intervention of a particular treatment).  The lack of a control to the study (with a sample size of 1) makes determining causation or correlation impossible.

Like when someone gets a headache, and reach for a couple of paracetamol and a glass of water.  Their headache goes in 30 minutes.  Was it the tablets, the water, the placebo effect, or just a matter of time and the headache would have subsided after half an hour if they'd done nothing anyway?  What about next time they get a headache - that's maybe caused by something different? Anecdotal evidence is unreliable at best, which is why we rely on properly run clinical trials and scientific studies.

Such a nob. You could say this about absolutely anything.

Like when someone has a heart attack and needs a defibrillator to bring them round. How do we know they wouldn't have just got up and walked off if we'd just left them to it.

Or like when someone's severed an artery so someone kindly clamps it for them. How do we know it wouldn't have just healed itself if we'd left it alone?

Cliffs:

Nob.

BoB

[kinboshi]

I don't have high blood pressure, or a high cholesterol level. That doesn't mean I shouldn't do anything to prevent those things from happening.

So when you still don't have high blood pressure or cholesterol in a couple of years will you assume that your prevention methods have been ineffective and start eating lard for breakfast?

That doesn't make sense.

I was taking the supplements under the misguided notion that they were preventing my joints from hurting, helping keep colds at bay, etc. When I stopped using them if my joints had become painful and I'd suddenly become susceptible to colds, then that would have suggested that the supplements were indeed working to prevent those things. But as these things didn't happen I had a choice to take them or not, but be the same health-wise.

I eat a diet that's largely low in fat, particularly saturated fat, eat fruit and veg, etc., and hopefully that will help me avoid getting heart disease that has run in my family. If it doesn't help me and I do get heart disease, I'll look to what modern medicine has to offer in order to treat it (as it did my father).

[EvilPie]

I don't have high blood pressure, or a high cholesterol level. That doesn't mean I shouldn't do anything to prevent those things from happening.

So when you still don't have high blood pressure or cholesterol in a couple of years will you assume that your prevention methods have been ineffective and start eating lard for breakfast?

That doesn't make sense.

I was taking the supplements under the misguided notion that they were preventing my joints from hurting, helping keep colds at bay, etc. When I stopped using them if my joints had become painful and I'd suddenly become susceptible to colds, then that would have suggested that the supplements were indeed working to prevent those things. But as these things didn't happen I had a choice to take them or not, but be the same health-wise.

I eat a diet that's largely low in fat, particularly saturated fat, eat fruit and veg, etc., and hopefully that will help me avoid getting heart disease that has run in my family. If it doesn't help me and I do get heart disease, I'll look to what modern medicine has to offer in order to treat it (as it did my father).

But your joints weren't hurting before you started the supplements were they and you weren't unusually susceptible to colds?

So you were perfectly alright, you started taking something to stop you not being perfectly alright and continued to be perfectly alright.

How does this show that the supplements don't help when there was nothing wrong in the first place?

What you're talking about with cholesterol is preventing something happening by not consuming which is known to cause it. To liken this to your knee/joint situation you could say that you actively chose not to smash yourself in the knee with a hammer.

If your knees were to start causing you problems then there's a chance that supplements could help so would you take them or just leave it to nature?

[Jon MW]

...
How does this show that the supplements don't help when there was nothing wrong in the first place?
...

I think the point is that - as well as helping with a problem - these supplements are marketed as being able to prevent the problem to start with.

It's basically a different direction boshi has taken because the last one had played itself out

[kinboshi]

Also, the burden of proof for whether supplements work or not should lie with those peddling them demonstrating they are effective. We've already established that anecdotal evidence is misleading and unhelpful.

My reason for stopping using supplements was reading up on the science behind them and the (lack of) clinical trials that demonstrate their effectiveness.

I do hope that the precautions I'm taking to reduce the risk of heart disease do help though, otherwise the consequences are a little more severe.

[Claw75]

My last couple of weeks training for the half has gone right up the spout.  Did my final long run last sunday and plan was to do a 4 and 5 miler in the week, 6 this weekend, then a couple of short runs during next week.  Didn't quite pan out.  Couldn't get out midweek and set out to do 4 miles yesterday to get back on top of it.  Started feeling pretty lightheaded a couple of miles in and walked the rest home.  Then got hit last night with this crappy norovirus thing.  any running tomorrow just isn't going to happen.  not really sure what to do now - obviously don't want to push myself too hard and make sure i'm properly recovered in time for the race, but don't really want to be starting on Sunday having done hardly any running in the two weeks beforehand.  My instinct is to give it two or three days and just do a couple of three milers later in the week if I feel up to it, and hope for the best on race day.  Does that sound like a sensible option, or should I be resting more/training less or vice versa?

[gatso]

best thing you can do is take it easy and recover fully from being sick, no training you do now is going to have any impact on a run in 8 days time. the most important thing is that you got the long run under your belt, as long as you get over the illness you'll be fine

yeah it's best if you can get a couple of little runs in but they're really just to keep the legs ticking over, only need to be 2 or 3 miles and keep them slow

I only did 12 miles in the week before MK marathon

[nirvana]

I don't have high blood pressure, or a high cholesterol level. That doesn't mean I shouldn't do anything to prevent those things from happening.

So when you still don't have high blood pressure or cholesterol in a couple of years will you assume that your prevention methods have been ineffective and start eating lard for breakfast?

I don't really have the education level to know if this makes sense but it made me laugh. I wasn't laughing at all before I read it so read into that what you will,

[gatso]

I don't have high blood pressure, or a high cholesterol level. That doesn't mean I shouldn't do anything to prevent those things from happening.

So when you still don't have high blood pressure or cholesterol in a couple of years will you assume that your prevention methods have been ineffective and start eating lard for breakfast?

I don't really have the education level to know if this makes sense but it made me laugh. I wasn't laughing at all before I read it so read into that what you will,

have you ever laughed when you have not been reading it?

[nirvana]

I don't have high blood pressure, or a high cholesterol level. That doesn't mean I shouldn't do anything to prevent those things from happening.

So when you still don't have high blood pressure or cholesterol in a couple of years will you assume that your prevention methods have been ineffective and start eating lard for breakfast?

I don't really have the education level to know if this makes sense but it made me laugh. I wasn't laughing at all before I read it so read into that what you will,

have you ever laughed when you have not been reading it?

Trick question ? I think so

[Claw75]

Yay i'm a half marathoner proper report tomorrow when i'm home at my lappy and (hopefully) functioning like a normal human being again!

[kinboshi]

Great stuff!

Bit warm?

[Laxie]

Well done Claire!

[Claw75]

tyty!  Here goes.

My first half-marathon by Claire MacGregor aged 36 and a bit - part one

Why Sheffield?  One of my oldest friends, Lorna, lives in Sheffield, and her husband, Nick, has run the half marathon there for the last few years.  When I first signed up for Berlin he suggested I come up and give it a go as it should fit in quite well with my training towards the big one.  Seemed like a good idea - a nice target to work to along the way to Berlin, and a weekend to catch up with my friends as well.  I'm in.  Rather than thinking about Berlin in September, this first milestone was what I'd really been aiming towards from the get go.  As is pretty standard with these things, there were a few spanners in the works with getting a chest infection back in Feb/March time that meant I couldn't run for a few weeks, but building gradually and allowing plenty of time meant that I could pretty much make up for the lost training even though it was a big backwards step.  Things progressed well from there (although after finishing my first 10k race a few weeks ago my first words afterwards were something like "bloody hell - I'm never going to manage that half marathon").  I underestimated the amazing ability of the human body to respond to training and adapt, and a fortnight ago I finished my longest training run of 11 miles.  It was hard work, but I did it.  Now to taper down towards race day, except.....

....the following week I only managed one short run.  The plan was to catch up at the weekend.  I then got hit with norovirus.  Marv.  No use to man or beast, running simply wasn't happening.  "At least it's this weekend and not next weekend" I thought.  Having been working towards this for so long I'd have been absolutely gutted if I hadn't been able to run.  After a few days recovery I managed another couple of short runs in the week.  Something else had changed though - the sun had appeared.  Having started running in around November time I was used to running in cold, cool or wet conditions.  The heat did not agree with me.  I hoped the sun would do it's usual disappearing act come Sunday, but, if not, I'd do my best to prepare.

On Saturday morning I had all my gear packed up and ready to go.  Sunblock, hat, water bottle, suitable clothing.  Just had to drop Hannah off with Gary, then head across London to St Pancras to get my train up to Sheffield.  Gary wanted to borrow my hoover for the weekend as his is kaput.  With everything else already loaded into the car I reached down to pick up the hoover from it's home behind my couch, and as I lifted it a muscle snagged in my lower back.  It hurt. A lot.  It didn't go away.  Bugger.

[Claw75]

part two

I'd left plenty of time to drop Hannah and get into town for my train so we delayed a while whilst I took some painkillers and slathered on some deep heat giving it a chance to kick in.  I felt pretty comfortable sitting down, it was only when I was standing that it really hurt, so I took some comfort from thinking it couldn't be that bad and knowing that, apart from a bit of lugging my stuff around, I'd be mainly seated for the next few hours on my journey up north.

The pain continued into Saturday evening.  I was absolutely determined to run if there was any way I could, but I have to say that as I turned in that night, I wasn't at all confident.  All I could hope was for a good night's sleep and that I'd wake up having miraculously recovered.  Well the first bit didn't happen.  I eventually got off at around 2, woke at 4, got back off at 5, then my alarm went to get up at 6.30.  I tentatively got out of bed and stood up.  My back ached, but that was it - the sharp pain was gone.  A bit more deep heat, some painkillers, and I was going to run.

After some faffing about with our taxi not turning up as booked Nick and I eventually got to the Don Valley stadium via car and tram about 20 minutes before the race was due to start.  We said our good luck's and lined up at our respective starting positions and arranged to meet in the pub afterwards.  As with my last race, I had no watch, no actual time targets, but from my training runs I guessed I'd finish in about 2.20 - maybe a little longer depending how the heat affected me.  Having been so close to not actually being able to run I was just ecstatic to be there and keeping everything crossed that my back would hold out enough for me to finish.  With nearly 6000 people running it took a few minutes to get across the start line, and then we were off.  I kept it slow and steady, but seemed to be overtaking a lot of people over the first few miles.  Slightly worried that I was running faster than I should, but I felt good and comfortable, so just carried on.  There wasn't a cloud in the sky and, even though it was only just after 9am, it was already hot.  Water stations were plentiful - about every 2 miles - and I took water on board at every one (most of it going over my head or down my back).  There was also a fair bit of shade along the way, so I kept to that when I could.  The first few miles were pretty dull and uninspiring - running through industrial estates towards the town centre.  Once we hit the town centre though the atmosphere was fantastic with loads of people lining the streets cheering everyone on - I was really enjoying it.  A lot of the first half of the race was uphill, but they were a lot more gradual than I was expecting, and not as bad as the hills I had run in my training runs, but I was glad I'd had the practice.  I felt great until about the 8 mile mark, coming back in towards the town centre on the return stretch when we met our steepest hill, and for the first time I started to feel heavy legged.  I knew though that, once that hill was done, the rest of the course was gradually downhill, with the last couple of miles on the flat.  11 miles was where I really started to struggle.  back out on the industrial estates, not many people on the roads.  The painkillers were wearing off, my back was aching, It was very hot, and I'd never run this far in my life.  This was the point we also started to pass quite a few people receiving medical attention along the side of the road - some looking in a pretty bad way.  Then the arena was in sight, and I found renewed energy.  The finish line wasn't as close as it first appeared though, we had to first run into the stadiium, around the top, then back out and along the road, before coming back in on to the track to the finish line.  As I finally entered the marathon gate I could see the clock ahead showing 2.23.  I knew it had taken me a few minutes to get across the start line and, buoyed up by the idea that I could break 2.20 I found a last burst of energy and ran strong and fast towards the finish line.  It felt amazing to have completed it against all the odds and in those conditions and, weirdly, I didn't feel tired or wobbly legged at all.  I picked up my goodies, and went off to check my chip time.  2.18.25.  I was pretty darn chuffed with that

My thoughts afterwards this time were "I'm never going to be able to run a whole marathon" but I've already proved myself wrong once, so I guess I'll just have to do it again!