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Author Topic: Tips for Tikay  (Read 13428511 times)
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« Reply #136215 on: June 23, 2019, 11:37:30 AM »

Industry in the spotlight over restricting Dettori Royal Ascot multiples http://bit.ly/2N0Z7ZF

is the link
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« Reply #136216 on: June 23, 2019, 12:39:14 PM »

It only affects the two market leaders really because of the huge 'square/rec' client bases they have.  The bigger the client base of this type the bigger the liabilities.  I don't think people outside of the industry actually realise the figures involved if he had won all 6.  They are off the charts large.   Albeit its a million he does it the very next day the 'sheep wagons' all follow in the next day for a laugh and the liab's would have been even bigger the next day.   There isn't a way to manage it short term other than to turn off the facility or have a position that literally could send the firm under.

The day's of shortening up the sp of the last 2 legs is long gone for 99% of the online BOG (multiples as well as singles) business as punters virtually always take a price now so sending money back to the track to shorten a 20/1 shot into 6/4 is pointless as all your punters have taken 20/1 in the morning on that acca's.  365 also price match all rivals on the day of the races in the morning so it's a perfect cocktail of chaos which just can't be managed effectively.  Add in the fact it was one of the rare occasions when they did the bollocks EV wise to cash out punters after 4 legs because they were 7/2 the next jolly and letting the punters cash out at that price when it was a 20/1 poke earlier.

There is also the related cont argument which is very valid for a jockey like Frankie because without the first four winning there is no way he rides the 5th horse in the style that he did imo so the price does change subsequently given the first four have won.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 12:48:48 PM by arbboy » Logged
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« Reply #136217 on: June 23, 2019, 12:57:08 PM »

It only affects the two market leaders really because of the huge 'square/rec' client bases they have.  The bigger the client base of this type the bigger the liabilities.  I don't think people outside of the industry actually realise the figures involved if he had won all 6.  They are off the charts large.   Albeit its a million he does it the very next day the 'sheep wagons' all follow in the next day for a laugh and the liab's would have been even bigger the next day.   There isn't a way to manage it short term other than to turn off the facility or have a position that literally could send the firm under.

The day's of shortening up the sp of the last 2 legs is long gone for 99% of the online BOG (multiples as well as singles) business as punters virtually always take a price now so sending money back to the track to shorten a 20/1 shot into 6/4 is pointless as all your punters have taken 20/1 in the morning on that acca's.  365 also price match all rivals on the day of the races in the morning so it's a perfect cocktail of chaos which just can't be managed effectively.  Add in the fact it was one of the rare occasions when they did the bollocks EV wise to cash out punters after 4 legs because they were 7/2 the next jolly and letting the punters cash out at that price when it was a 20/1 poke earlier.

There is also the related cont argument which is very valid for a jockey like Frankie because without the first four winning there is no way he rides the 5th horse in the style that he did imo so the price does change subsequently given the first four have won.

The big difference now compared to a few years ago is cashout. Where the bookies would be sweating a 7 timer (while shortening the last three to favourites), now they have to pay out a four timer, plus the artificially shortened price of the last three races.

So the bookie gets a bashing for moving the price in to protect itself from the 7 timer and instead gives a big EV haul to the cashout mob...of which Sky and 365 have plenty.
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« Reply #136218 on: June 23, 2019, 01:27:53 PM »

It was a perfect storm of chaos with the biggest name in the sport, on the biggest day of flat racing with all the other factors in the modern betting world impacting the decision. I don't think the 'boards' of the big firms probably realised the worse case spot carnage of a situation like this tbh in the modern internet world now their businesses are the size they are with mug punters.

Obviously these are great bets to lay long term but you are not going to risk the 15/20 year business model trying to nick £50k of accas all on the same outcome.    Their trading strat's to offer racing as a loss leader to gain market share/let their customers lose less on racing and more elsewhere so they don't have to pay the levy on their profits to horse racing just make the situation worse to manage as a trading director.  You can't tweak the software overnight to make it sp only on the last 3 legs of thhe acca so the only logistical thing you can do to protect yourself is to pull the product for the day after a certain liability has been reached you are happy with.

Sure Tikay will know what Skybet were on the hook for and from reading reliable people in the industry who don't lie about the numbers of this stuff it was multiples of Annie power numbers at risk potentially which in themselves were huge.  As Geoff Banks pointed out if Frankie had won all 6 it wouldn'thave been good for racing at all.  The levy payments for next year would have fell through the floor at the losses incurred by the firms.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 01:34:32 PM by arbboy » Logged
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« Reply #136219 on: June 23, 2019, 01:41:22 PM »

Outrage on twitter about it (surprise)

I look forward to all these people who say they will never use sky and/or 365 again offering the accounts to the market

would not be short of takers
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« Reply #136220 on: June 23, 2019, 01:57:01 PM »

I think it actually makes them look more responsible as layers in some ways.  It's easy for these little firms (with much smaller max pay out limits) to say 'come to us we will lay you the accas' to gain a little cheap publicity.  Course you will be but have you got the money to pay them out in full or just sit behind a £100k max pay out limit for horses or something similar and not offer the customer the same product?
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« Reply #136221 on: June 23, 2019, 08:06:25 PM »

It only affects the two market leaders really because of the huge 'square/rec' client bases they have.  The bigger the client base of this type the bigger the liabilities.  I don't think people outside of the industry actually realise the figures involved if he had won all 6.  They are off the charts large.   Albeit its a million he does it the very next day the 'sheep wagons' all follow in the next day for a laugh and the liab's would have been even bigger the next day.   There isn't a way to manage it short term other than to turn off the facility or have a position that literally could send the firm under.

The day's of shortening up the sp of the last 2 legs is long gone for 99% of the online BOG (multiples as well as singles) business as punters virtually always take a price now so sending money back to the track to shorten a 20/1 shot into 6/4 is pointless as all your punters have taken 20/1 in the morning on that acca's.  365 also price match all rivals on the day of the races in the morning so it's a perfect cocktail of chaos which just can't be managed effectively.  Add in the fact it was one of the rare occasions when they did the bollocks EV wise to cash out punters after 4 legs because they were 7/2 the next jolly and letting the punters cash out at that price when it was a 20/1 poke earlier.

There is also the related cont argument which is very valid for a jockey like Frankie because without the first four winning there is no way he rides the 5th horse in the style that he did imo so the price does change subsequently given the first four have won.

Arb nails it here,  if you got unthinkable amounts running on to the 6th leg if Turgenev wins  then a responsible firm is never going to put themselves in that position again. If you have a max payout per customer that is much smaller and you take a fraction of the bets of the biggest firm then you have already put your get out of jail position in place already. 365 did what any regular business would do and protected themselves from calamity.

The icing on the cake is the arber/ BOT trader HBF spokesmen doesn’t take any positions at all, rarely has a losing position and never worked for a huge bookmaker which is why the niavity of his comments shine thru.

I was managing a Hills Key shop when Frankie rode his 7 timer in 1996. We had 24 multiple bets that returned over xxxx that needed the camera man to come the next morning to get them validated. Coz it was a Saturday tea time we ran out of money and couldn’t get any more, there were lots of other winning bets that had 3-4-5 winners that fell under the ‘dont need to be validated by checking the camera roll’ but all added up to a lot of money too. That was one shop that took around 2,500 bets on a busy Saturday in 1996.

Fast forward to now and the way bookmaking has changed it would have been catastrophic to some firms and it would be irresponsible if you didn’t take action to avoid. Don’t forget 365 owners are playing with their own money as a privately owned firm, not part of a conglomerate with other wide ranging business interests (tho it would probably have caused Stoke City’s relegation odds to be slashed if Frankie had ridden all 6) and no sensible business owner would risk their family business.

I guess going forward treating multis like that should be priced up as related contingencies. If you want to bet Man City to win the next 6 Pemier League titles you don’t get their current price for next years Prem times 6. You price it up as if Man City win next year what price are they the year after, so when you get to year 5 and 6 the price of them winning the next season is much shorter than their price for just next season, because they have now won 4 or 5 on the trot.

I’m not saying that’s ideal btw, customers still want to have their lucky’’s, yankees and ew Acca’s on non related races but when you are going to reach your max comfortable loss as a firm by a long long way no firm can put themselves in that spot.





« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 08:12:49 PM by bobby1 » Logged

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« Reply #136222 on: June 23, 2019, 08:26:59 PM »

Is Ben Keith(StarSports) playing with his own money or does he have a billionaire backer?

I saw he made a grab at the limelight on Twitter saying that he/they would welcome all FrankieD accas despite what some big firms were saying.

I must admit to wondering at the time what their limits might be.
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« Reply #136223 on: June 23, 2019, 09:27:31 PM »

Is Ben Keith(StarSports) playing with his own money or does he have a billionaire backer?

I saw he made a grab at the limelight on Twitter saying that he/they would welcome all FrankieD accas despite what some big firms were saying.

I must admit to wondering at the time what their limits might be.

Obviously a bloom boy being brighton based and ex VC.  Surely that is obvious to anyone in the game?   He isn't laying these bets with his own money.  Can we stop pretending.   Simon Nott never reports a winning day at the track BEFORE expenses.   Maybe he is lying.  Who knows.  I sometimes wonder why they bother with the on course business when you read Simon's blog.  He is 1/10 to report a loss on any given day.  Where does the money come from to stand still never mind pay the huge ascot/chelt exs most bookies can't afford and moan about normally who are genuine.

Most pro punters consider having 5% of their bankroll on a bet to be a total max bet.  I can't imagine laying a horse at 5/4 for £500k who should be 5/4 11/8 or 6/4 makes that anything like a max bet.  Even if it was he would need £10m roll to do what he is doing (and afford to pay for the prime pitches and exs alongside).   Laying a 5/4 shot that shouild be 11/8 or 6/4 is probably a 1% of roll job as standard so if Ben is doing this with his own money we should be seeing him very shortly in the Sunday Times rich list i would imagine.  
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 09:54:53 PM by arbboy » Logged
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« Reply #136224 on: June 24, 2019, 07:09:12 AM »


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/jun/23/frankie-dettori-royal-ascot-online-betting-bet365-skybet
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« Reply #136225 on: June 25, 2019, 02:15:17 PM »


Australia are a good bet here for anyone who can get the 5/4. Under these conditions at Lords, I expect Starc/Cummins to be a real problem.
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« Reply #136226 on: June 25, 2019, 06:16:09 PM »

Interesting choice of shirt by David Duckenfield who will face a retrial over his handling of Hillsborough:

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« Reply #136227 on: June 25, 2019, 07:23:31 PM »

Bet Victor currently 5/1 on Newcastle to be relegated, which is out of line with other bookies.

https://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/premier-league/relegation
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« Reply #136228 on: June 25, 2019, 08:56:04 PM »


One for the Betfred haters to get stuck in to, if there are such people.


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/25/betfred-refuse-punter-189000-pounds-after-mistake-betting-slip-horse-racing?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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« Reply #136229 on: June 25, 2019, 10:46:12 PM »



Obviously if Bialco loses he’d be returning the winnings from Bailarico...

Can he win this argument?
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