Staking deals and markup. Discussion?

[titaniumbean]

Funny timing, was gonna put staking thread up for big buyin comp and was playing around with what price to charge cos think its the type of comp people overestimate the field quality and underestimate edges due to size of the buyin and misperception of players abilities. Will leave it a few weeks now

Whens the $25k mate?

Surely the $1mil One-Drop at the WSOP?

Nah Dave got a seat for the $25 WPT for winning Dublin. Was just wondering when it is as have a v small %

end of May.

[outragous76]

Funny timing, was gonna put staking thread up for big buyin comp and was playing around with what price to charge cos think its the type of comp people overestimate the field quality and underestimate edges due to size of the buyin and misperception of players abilities. Will leave it a few weeks now

Whens the $25k mate?

Surely the $1mil One-Drop at the WSOP?

There is talk of 24 confirmed for this, 8 absolute whales (silly bands man etc). If I won the Euromillions I would put Dubai into it!

[c4ught]

selling at 80-20= ?

isn't that more the norm these days?

The only thing is, is somebody going to be motivated to grind a 12bb stack when they are only going to get 20% of a cash? Like sitting there for 2 days close to the bubble you're probably going to make ICM mistakes around the bubble because you need a stack to justify any kind of hourly.

I think generally anybody who plays a tournament should have at least 35% of themselves. But of course who am I to say how motivated somebody is going to be.

If you dont think someone is going to be motivated to play for 20-30% surely you would not of invested in them in the first place?

People must take character/reputation into consideration in some way when buying pieces so you have an idea on whether the guy is giving it 100% even before the event.

[Doobs]

The deal I have is that my buyins are paid for in full and I get to keep 50% of the profits. That would be @ 2.0 were it not for the makeup. I don't know whether it's possible to calculate an equivalent figure taking into account the makeup component. 

Ok Ty for being open and obv makeup has to reduce that 2.0 considerably tho.

Yeah I do get that also Matt but for people to say 70/30 is not value and have a dig is completely wrong. If you are happy to buy buy but if you are not happy to buy then don't.  

Make up makes a huge difference, you can back somebody who is only marginally profitable with the mark up in place, as in the very long run you would make 50% of that marginal profit.

Where we do differ is that I think it should be perfectly OK to criticise a deal proposed on a public forum.  It would be always wrong to have a personal dig, but I don't see why I can't say that I think it is lousy value.  You say if you think it isn't value just don't buy, but I would reply if you can't take criticism don't ask for money on a public forum.

The fact I am posting on this thread rather than the threads elsewhere is simply because I don't think it is particularly right to pick one particular thread.  I'd far rather do it here.  When this thread popped up, I'd been thinking about starting a general mathematics of poker thread where value and otherwise of staking would be one of the things that could be discussed.

As an aside, in your previous post you mentioned there was a lot of criticism of red's 70/30 proposal.  I don't think there was and I am not sure you should have singled him out.  But as you mentioned him, I'd say that given the amount he gives to blonde than that is one particular proposal I really don't have a problem with.

[bobby1]

I think on a forum like this a 70/30 is not taking advantage of stakers, purely because I believe stakers are well aware of the pros/cons/rates/abilities. However I think offering something like that to a workmate would be a little unsavoury as they're more likely to misunderstand abilities/rates etc.

That said, is it not worth having a 'staking explained' thread on the staking board? There does seem to be a post about it on the 'rules thread', but perhaps this could be expanded?

As others have said, I think the market dictates and the Blonde marketplace seems in very good health. If value is not there for stakers then they don't sell out, simple.

It was mentioned earlier that some players can command a higher price. A really good example of this and the fairness of the market was Keys recent silent auction. No bluster from the seller, people just bid what they thought was good value. There was quite a range there, but 1.33 was probably a fair price in the end.

Buyers and sellers go into these arrangements with their eyes wide open; long may Blonde staking continue IMO.

One of the things that all stake request should have in them is the real name of the person asking for the stake, I read a lot of them and have no idea who the person is. Tho most have a link to THM database some of them don't.

[smashedagain]

The deal I have is that my buyins are paid for in full and I get to keep 50% of the profits. That would be @ 2.0 were it not for the makeup. I don't know whether it's possible to calculate an equivalent figure taking into account the makeup component. 

Ok Ty for being open and obv makeup has to reduce that 2.0 considerably tho.

Yeah I do get that also Matt but for people to say 70/30 is not value and have a dig is completely wrong. If you are happy to buy buy but if you are not happy to buy then don't.  

After back to back finals ceri must be considered better value than Tikay but who are we to say that they should ask between 1:1.0/1.3.  I am pretty sure if either of em put up a staking thread asking for 1:2 they would both sell out (both for differing reasons)

That is what we used to call a SOTBO

Just got in from the school / playing at the park but used you as an extreme example to highlight the fact that you are both gonna get backed for different reasons by different people. No offence intended but used you as an extreme example of being popular and would sell out a staking thread

[tikay]

The deal I have is that my buyins are paid for in full and I get to keep 50% of the profits. That would be @ 2.0 were it not for the makeup. I don't know whether it's possible to calculate an equivalent figure taking into account the makeup component. 

Ok Ty for being open and obv makeup has to reduce that 2.0 considerably tho.

Yeah I do get that also Matt but for people to say 70/30 is not value and have a dig is completely wrong. If you are happy to buy buy but if you are not happy to buy then don't.  

After back to back finals ceri must be considered better value than Tikay but who are we to say that they should ask between 1:1.0/1.3.  I am pretty sure if either of em put up a staking thread asking for 1:2 they would both sell out (both for differing reasons)

That is what we used to call a SOTBO

Just got in from the school / playing at the park but used you as an extreme example to highlight the fact that you are both gonna get backed for different reasons by different people. No offence intended but used you as an extreme example of being popular and would sell out a staking thread

Lol, no offence taken Mr Updater.

It's rather late in my life, & I am singularly ill-equipped to worry about appendage waving.

[smashedagain]

The deal I have is that my buyins are paid for in full and I get to keep 50% of the profits. That would be @ 2.0 were it not for the makeup. I don't know whether it's possible to calculate an equivalent figure taking into account the makeup component. 

Ok Ty for being open and obv makeup has to reduce that 2.0 considerably tho.

Yeah I do get that also Matt but for people to say 70/30 is not value and have a dig is completely wrong. If you are happy to buy buy but if you are not happy to buy then don't.  

Make up makes a huge difference, you can back somebody who is only marginally profitable with the mark up in place, as in the very long run you would make 50% of that marginal profit.

Where we do differ is that I think it should be perfectly OK to criticise a deal proposed on a public forum.  It would be always wrong to have a personal dig, but I don't see why I can't say that I think it is lousy value.  You say if you think it isn't value just don't buy, but I would reply if you can't take criticism don't ask for money on a public forum.

The fact I am posting on this thread rather than the threads elsewhere is simply because I don't think it is particularly right to pick one particular thread.  I'd far rather do it here.  When this thread popped up, I'd been thinking about starting a general mathematics of poker thread where value and otherwise of staking would be one of the things that could be discussed.

As an aside, in your previous post you mentioned there was a lot of criticism of red's 70/30 proposal.  I don't think there was and I am not sure you should have singled him out.  But as you mentioned him, I'd say that given the amount he gives to blonde than that is one particular proposal I really don't have a problem with.

of course you have every right to your opinion and on thinking back it's generated a lively debate and has not actually got personal in any way as far as I can see. Most people post "flame away" so don't mind it.

[Junior Senior]

I suppose I ought to comment here given that I was one of the players that was staked 70/30 for the £500 Deepstack.

There are obviously lots of varying views on here and it has created a lively debate, which is great.  I must admit I am surprised with some of the views and feel a lot of people are completely missing the point here....  Staking proposals are purely a case of basic economics, i.e. supply vs. demand and finding the market’s equilibrium price.  As a person looking to be staked you put forward a proposal that you think is priced correctly according to what you offer (skills, record, time invested etc) and the market (in this case blonde forum members) decide whether it is a value proposition or not and decide if they want to buy or not.  It couldn’t be simpler. If people don’t want to bother buying a piece then also... fine.

I read almost every staking thread on this forum and have done for years and at times I think a player’s proposal represents value and if I have a few quid spare I get involved.  If I feel it isn’t value and I don’t want to invest, I ignore it. I take particular issue with Doobs here who for some reason feels he can publically decide, be judge and Jury and comment who is and who isn’t value... should we care about your opinion or just expect you to politely not get involved if you’re not interested? I wonder if you examine every item on eBay each day and flame the sale price and seller on their forum if they are selling their tut for a price you don’t like?...


On sicilian’s point
“just found it a bit odd to ask for 100% staking into  £500+ comps on a regular basis and then say if you binked you would continue to ask for a 100% staking... thats like saying to your mate im on my uppers can I come and stay with you and eat ur food but if i win the lottery id like you to still keep me..”


This is NOT the point I was making by saying this, it’s actually the opposite.  If I had won the £90K (£30K for myself) I would have paid a huge chunk of my mortgage off, gone on holiday, bought some furniture, treated the wife and have a new bank roll but it still wouldn’t be enough to play this event regularly. Also, to say to someone who stakes you that now you’ve done a bink with their money and next time I won’t need you as i’m on my ‘own dime’ now is in my view morally wrong – even though I could now afford to play the tournament with my own cash, I would have actually wanted to give those same people the chance to profit again from me playing for them and look at it as a long term arrangement, which was mutually beneficial to both parties, so your point couldn’t be more wrong.

People are failing to see that these staking arrangements are designed to be mutually beneficial to both backer and staker and not as one person put it (Doobs i think) ‘asking for money’ on an open forum – no-one is holding a gun and robbing these people – everyone has a choice whether or not to invest!

Final point... I don’t think anyone on here has ever sought to confuse anyone about rates by using 70/30 instead of 1.3 etc and I think anyone buying pieces will know the score.

Good luck to all with you future staking threads.
Greg

[pleno1]

some good points in that post bud.

[brookie]

gud reading this when i get my post up im hoping to get some backing from u lot i know u dont now me but would like to sell out it only going to be the £150 deepstack any way lol but u never know  any way that along way off

[action man]

Just my opinion...I have always thought it a little cheeky when I see these 70/30 fully staked by backers. The player wants to free roll the event but is basically saying up front that I don't want to have my own cash at risk. It isn't rocket science surely, if you are not rolled to play a 500 event, or you are not comfy putting your money into it, why are you asking to play it?

Just play the 50/100/150 that you can afford.

this pretty much spot on for me. Its a golden time for stakees at the moment. Without building a roll from scratch playing thoasands of hands online and going through the limits, just have a big bink live. People, including myself are just addicted to the sweat these days.

[JK]

Just my opinion...I have always thought it a little cheeky when I see these 70/30 fully staked by backers. The player wants to free roll the event but is basically saying up front that I don't want to have my own cash at risk. It isn't rocket science surely, if you are not rolled to play a 500 event, or you are not comfy putting your money into it, why are you asking to play it?

Just play the 50/100/150 that you can afford.

Personally, its nothing to do with not wanting to risk my own money lol. I stated on my thread that I will be moving out of my parents house soon and moving in with my girlfriend. This means buy furniture, appliances and all that other stuff, along with getting a mortgage. I cannot justify playing poker when we need the money for other things.

All I wanted to do was get a chance to play a tournament with a massive prizepool to attempt to bink a score for myself/investors. By the sounds of things, you want people to play for free?

[bobby1]

Just my opinion...I have always thought it a little cheeky when I see these 70/30 fully staked by backers. The player wants to free roll the event but is basically saying up front that I don't want to have my own cash at risk. It isn't rocket science surely, if you are not rolled to play a 500 event, or you are not comfy putting your money into it, why are you asking to play it?

Just play the 50/100/150 that you can afford.

Personally, its nothing to do with not wanting to risk my own money lol. I stated on my thread that I will be moving out of my parents house soon and moving in with my girlfriend. This means buy furniture, appliances and all that other stuff, along with getting a mortgage. I cannot justify playing poker when we need the money for other things.

All I wanted to do was get a chance to play a tournament with a massive prizepool to attempt to bink a score for myself/investors. By the sounds of things, you want people to play for free?

When people have a bet they should bet to their pocket.

If I have £500 on something I pay for it myself, If I cannot afford it I have what I can afford. If I grouped a set of people together and told them I fancied something at a really big price but didn't want to risk my own money, then said I want you all to club £500 together and put it on my selection, if it wins I want 30% of the winnings they would tell me to fuck off, and rightly so.

I accept that poker staking is seen differently but at the end of the day if you cannot afford to play poker because you have put your money into more important things, and girlfriends and houses and appliances are far more important, then you should cut your cloth accordingly.

I bet you have spent less on going out, maybe cut a few corners here and there too to make those things happen, then do the same with the pokering too.

The mentality seems to be 'I can not afford this now but I will sell my action to my mates at mates rates that favour me, not them.'

Where I come from mates rates mean the mate gets a discount, not pays a premium.

My view isn't person specific by the way, it is just how I see it as a whole.

[railtard1]

great great thread. Some really good replys here, and the thread hasnt been de-railed like many are.
I think sellin old school by saying 70/30 in backers favour is a pretty clever way of disguising ur actually selling at 1.4, I say this as its common practice to sell at a premium, in a decimal, 1.2, 1.25, etc etc
I think a community like blonde (and the poker community in general) is built around friendships, with a ton of banter and 'sweats'. Buyin pieces of people in comps is a great way to build relationships. I think if people are willing to pay premiums, then there can be no real argument. for many its fun, but For many its a serious investment and even buying at 1.3 can be hugely +ev in the right situations.
I personally have sold action for online stuff at 1.15 - 1.16. I am probably still a decent investment at 1.3+ in high stakes online mtt's, but keep it smaller as dont want to price out smaller stakes guys who want sweats for pretty cheap.

I saw someone comparing poker staking to some other form of real life investment (mentioning to friends about "sticking in 500 each and having x amount of equity"), but this is a pretty pointless comparison IMO (dont mean this offensively in any way), as the poker world is a far stretch from reality at times, and that is why having poker (and poker friends), and a life outside poker is so important.

As i said, great great thread.
marc