Jeremy Clarkson on Airport Immgration Delays

[redarmi]

If we look at people that have brought down planes then you are correct although the term brown skin is a convenient catch all because by no means have they all been from the same racial background.  The shoe bomber was from a mixed family none of whom were muslim and the underwear bomber was a black African from one of the richest families in the region.  Germaine Lesley was born in Jamaica and was black.  Of course using the tiny sample size of people that try and blow up planes is pretty unrepresentative.  In order to get a decent sample size you would need to extend the sample to all cases of terrorism for a decent period of time and then all of a sudden you need to include all people of Irish descent, Japanese descent, white American descent and even nice white boys from Surrey who have decided to blow up blacks, Asians and gays.  Do we really think if Anders Breivik or Timothy McVeigh had the wherewithal to take a plane and fly it into the white house or Norwegian parliament they might not have been tempted?

Muslims tend to be much more willing to kill themselves in the process though. Not that that means targeting brown skinned people. There are plenty of caucasian muslims. But you're kind of arguing against yourself, as we're specifically talking about security checks at airports here. When was the last time the IRA flew a plane into a building?

I think that is a fair point but it is very dangerous to assume that what has happened in the past is a good guide to the future.  Plenty of non Muslim extremists have been willing to die for their cause and you don't have to be brown to be a Muslim extremist as John Walker Lindh showed. 

[ManuelsMum]

Is there not a difference between racism and racial profiling, or for that matter nation profiling?

That's an interesting point and I've given it a bit of though, but basically, doesn't it amount to the same thing. i.e. attributing traits / behaviour patterns to someone because of their race?

I'm not saying you're wrong here, I'm just struggling to separate the two.

As far as I'm aware anybody who has brought down a plane in recent times or anybody been caught trying to has had brown skin. As such placing special emphasis on people with brown skin is completely reasonable. Profiling is essential because getting through an airport would take all day if such measures weren't in place. I am fine with it because the person with brown skin isn't disadvantaged or less equal in the scheme of humanity, they are simply put within the boundaries of a profile for security and safety reasons, including their own.

Whilst I'm ok with brown skin profiling right now I think it will be less effective in the future because Al Qaeda are smart cookies and soon enough they will be using white people to combat it. Thus it must be organic and change with the times. Right now it is people with brown skin who are factually more likely to commit these crimes and hence why they are targeted more often. That is not racism or anything close to it imo.

Fair point well made but what you're talking about with profiling and with racism is judging people pejoratively based on skin colour and that is enough to conflate them in the minds of people who completely lack your faculty for more delicate judgement.

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We're talking about people getting off planes here but the principle is exactly the same, there are concerns for security aroudn the olympics and who we let in. The arguments can also be applied to who we chose to stop and search after 7/7. Sure were loads of gingers.

The 'irish' comment made me think back a few years, was at St Andrews the same time as William (and security was tight, they had found 'credible threats' including detailed maps among terrorist groups). He stayed at St Salvador's Hall of Residence for a while. Total irish resident count there during that time: zero.

[MANTIS01]

It's all very well chastising the current system of profiling and saying such and such isn't ideal. Sure thing. Who said it was ideal? But let's put you guys in charge of Heathrow for a second. You have close on 100 million people coming through your airport each year. Where would you guys start? Are you or your customers going to be satisfied with a 10 hour wait to enter/leave Britain so everybody can be searched/questioned equally? There needs to be an alternative. What is it? I find it very common for people to chastise a problem but not provide a solution.

[redarmi]

If I was in government I would have listened to the people on the ground that said cutting staff so drastically was likely to lead to these kind of delays which is not the image we want to present to the world in the year when its entire focus is on us.  So my solution would be to employ more immigration staff.

[AndrewT]

Not all Islamic terrorists are brown.

There's been a good documentary on channel 4 on Sunday nights giving a good 'behind the scenes' account of one such would be ginger assassin.

[redarmi]

whats the documentary called?

[redarmi]

Oh no.....I cant believe I fell for that...very good

[MANTIS01]

If I was in government I would have listened to the people on the ground that said cutting staff so drastically was likely to lead to these kind of delays which is not the image we want to present to the world in the year when its entire focus is on us.  So my solution would be to employ more immigration staff.

a) Profiling was in place before staffing was cut

b) More staff are being hired for the Olympics and profiling will still be in place

c) Employing more staff in the long term will mean cuts elsewhere. Where would you like to make those cuts Hospitals? Schools?

[redarmi]

c) Employing more staff in the long term will mean cuts elsewhere. Where would you like to make those cuts Hospitals? Schools?

Oh I have plenty of ideas for that but I am not sure this thread is the place for them but just for a start I would not have allowed Vodafone to renegotiate their tax bill from £6bn to £1.2bn.....that £4.8bn might pay for a couple of immigration officers with enough change for some schools and hospitals.

[doubleup]

If I was in government I would have listened to the people on the ground that said cutting staff so drastically was likely to lead to these kind of delays which is not the image we want to present to the world in the year when its entire focus is on us.  So my solution would be to employ more immigration staff.

a) Profiling was in place before staffing was cut

b) More staff are being hired for the Olympics and profiling will still be in place

c) Employing more staff in the long term will mean cuts elsewhere. Where would you like to make those cuts Hospitals? Schools?

For a start I wouldn't have wasted money on severance pay for staff that are going to be re-hired.  and the schools are fine for cuts.

[Doobs]

Is there not a difference between racism and racial profiling, or for that matter nation profiling?

That's an interesting point and I've given it a bit of though, but basically, doesn't it amount to the same thing. i.e. attributing traits / behaviour patterns to someone because of their race?

I'm not saying you're wrong here, I'm just struggling to separate the two.

As far as I'm aware anybody who has brought down a plane in recent times or anybody been caught trying to has had brown skin. As such placing special emphasis on people with brown skin is completely reasonable. Profiling is essential because getting through an airport would take all day if such measures weren't in place. I am fine with it because the person with brown skin isn't disadvantaged or less equal in the scheme of humanity, they are simply put within the boundaries of a profile for security and safety reasons, including their own.

Whilst I'm ok with brown skin profiling right now I think it will be less effective in the future because Al Qaeda are smart cookies and soon enough they will be using white people to combat it. Thus it must be organic and change with the times. Right now it is people with brown skin who are factually more likely to commit these crimes and hence why they are targeted more often. That is not racism or anything close to it imo.

Come on Mantis, that's a very trivial concept that you're endorsing. There's been more terrorist attacks in the UK caused by people of "Caucasian decent" then Brown skin if you want to put it in those terms.  Also I'm sure Jeremy Clarkson is talking about the queues of people waiting to get into the UK as opposed to out.  Take a look at the attempts to take planes down from the UK, "Redarmi" puts across the case well in saying that the sample size that you are going off is limited.  

We all know that the tabloids preach a lot of propaganda and sometimes the truth gets lost.. I don't want start talking about conspiracy theories and preaching my views on you all but come on, we spend £43 Billion a year on Defense, so threats foreign and domestic and only £23 Billion a year on Education, our border controls shouldn't just be quicker they should be more efficient in stopping threats before they even reach our shores..

Saying that and being a brown person myself I have had no issues with border control at any airport that I've visited in the last 30 years, maybe because I have an English name or maybe because I have a friendly face I don't know.  what I do know is that this country needs to start spending less on Welfare and more on Education, the root of all evil is lack of education and social integration because of it.  

Education and optimism is what made Britain Great.  We need start spending more on Education, instead trying to defend a country with a population of 62 million with Nuclear weapons and allowing people that live off the state to have a similar lifestyle to working class folk...

You'll be pleased to hear education spending has nearly quadrupled since your post. 

[Woodsey]

If I remember correctly he said something along the lines of 'you have a bunch of middle class families that have just arrived on a flight from Sardinia, would make sense to just wave them through after checking 1 of their passports'. It's more about letting people through faster that are clearly low, low risk than picking on a particular group as such, like a bunch of old biddies on a flight from Tenerife etc.

I find it pretty hard to disagree with that really.

[MintTrav]

Wouldn't profiling by nationality be better than by skin colour?

Less subjective too.

[kinboshi]

Wouldn't profiling by nationality be better than by skin colour?

Less subjective too.

Don't we already have that? One channel for EU nationals, another for non-EU nationals.

[Royal Flush]

Wouldn't profiling by nationality be better than by skin colour?

Less subjective too.

This was more my point, i think it was RedArmi who made reference to a Jamaican traveller. As i understand it Jamaican flights/passangers are the most likely to be carrying drugs, i remember seeing this in a documentary a while back. If i am border control i am probably going to be checking people from Jamaica.